Width vs speed...how much?

     From my sailing days, I recall something about the theoretical top speed of a displacement (non-planing) hull being 1.4 x the sq root of the waterline length.    It's based on the fact that you start sinking into the wave created by the boat the faster you go, which leads to diminishing returns of speed for effort.    
   To be grossly practical, I find that in my fully loaded P15, I can count on somewhere a little over 4 mph (maybe 4.2-4.4) if I'm trying to cover a couple of miles in decent but typical light wind/wave Monterey Bay conditions and still be comfortable.   I know that trolling an 8 oz ball on spectra about 50 ft deep will knock off a little less than 1 mph  from that.
    I've tried trolling with my rudder up, and it's not very comfortable, maybe because  I have the pole off to the left and I'm right-handed, so I'm making more strokes or a stronger pull with my off-arm.   No troll, but wind from the side, same thing.
      Others have said it: try them out, maybe a couple of times.  Throw a bag of sand in
'em to simulate your gear when wet plus the big ones you'll catch.
        

Oh ... and for you science geeks wanting to know more about length and its effects on speed.

http://www.inkdrop.net/qajaq/kayaking-science_WCSKS_07.pdf

Everything you ever wanted to know about the science of kayaking  ... AND MORE.

-Allen

Thanks Allen.  Most of that was a good quick review of marine science/oceanography. The bit on hull speed was very interesting, but I kind of wish it went into more depth on that.  I guess I'll have to read up on Froude and "Hull Speed".

Brian

You need to sit in on one of his talks in person.  The real presentation has a lot more to it that static slides just don't do justice too.  He's given the talks a couple times this winter at various venues.

-Allem

Yes, Allen, and what I key in on here is that you're having to use much more energy feeling apprehensive as you time your evasive manuevers - beyond the energy factor, I just don't want to be out there feeling apprehensive.  When windwaves are breaking they don't cover a high percentage of the surface, but most of us with lots of time on the ocean in those conditions know exactly what it feels like to have a beefy windwave break right on or around you or even turn and surf you a few feet unexpectedly.  In the X-Factor it's comfortable - in the Scrambler XT it's tolerable... 

Who you calling apprehensive Ab?     I don't think I spend much more energy.

All the more reasons to have multiple yaks!!!   

-Allen

I know, 6'3"/220 - you're not even scared of the boogie-man, Al!     My choice of words could've been more diplomatic, but it's how I feel when I have to watch the waves and adjust my paddling and positioning because of them. 

A friend of mine has one of these: http://www.maasboats.com/single.htm

Talk about the ultimate long narrow light boat!  Not really for fishing, of course, and built of extremely expensive carbon fiber, but it sure is a beauty on the water as she cruises silently past our Hobies doing 6-7 knots and barely leaving a wake.  Quite awesome, really.  Maybe if I'm really nice she'll let me try it sometime.  Now all she needs in a couple of rod holders...

I have both a OK Trident and a regular P15. I can unequivocally say that when it comes to cruising speed in calm to moderate conditions the faster boat is....






(scroll down for the answer...prepare for more controversy)







...I can't tell.



They feel quite different, the Trident puts you more out of the water (I went to a 140cm paddle for the Trident from a 130 on the P15)

The Trident is more stable, rides much better in the bumps and is a dryer ride. It also has a longer cockpit. The P15 feels faster as you are closer to the water, but in many trips with a mix of people in P15's P13's and the Trident, the boats all stay together, and nobody seems to be working harder than anyone else. And we switch boats from time to time. Try them both to see what you prefer.


As for the rudder, I love 'em. They allow us to use two line kites for one way help in getting somewhere, and make paddling in the wind or current easier. They also allow for more maneuverability in current...I will post a report later on a trip from Forestville to Jenner that was awesome and fun, but without rudders may have been a challenge.

for  me the t-140 is the perfect balance of speed and stability. it would seem that the xtreme stability of an xfactor would be safer in some situations but it can also be a safety problem in other situations. for example : if you are south of the only safe landing beach and the wind comes up out of the north and you have to paddle into a strong headwind to get back. if you are in a fat,slow stable boat, you might not be able to get back. find a good compromise between stability and speed.

Sorry,

 Guys, but the Tarpon 160 is still the best.  It has the right balance and speed.  But, I have had a ton of kayak mishaps...too know.  For the more "bigger behind "the other yaks might suit you better.

ken kickfish

Sorry,

 Guys, but the Tarpon 160 is still the best.  It has the right balance and speed.

ken kickfish

WTF???  I've been paddling the wrong kayak all along....

Z

Z,

Try to find a "old Style" tarpon 160 and I don't think you will find one.  I got a Hobie and don't even use it anymore.  The Great White like the Hobie....maybe because the fins and motion appear like a fish?

Ken kickfish

All sorts of stuff going on here. So here are a few comments that seem to cut against the prevailing grain:

I don't agree that a 21" boat means instantaneous needing to throw a brace in all but the stillest waters. I've flyfished from a 20" wide boat, without issue. The same boat is quite enjoyable out in the open ocean, with paddle in hand. But I do admit to not feeling it would make a good ocean fishing platform. My 22" wide boat was on the borderline for fishing in the ocean. I never really got all that comfortable in it with rod in hand. But it was hellanice when it came to the paddle to and from the fishing grounds.

I also find that I have more control with a less voluminous hull. There's less that the wind and water can work against. Give me a nice skinny boat that I'm well connected to, and bring on the sheep. At least while underway.

So I like the Scupper and Scupper Pro in the 14' length range, and am starting to like the T160, even though it is overly wide, and not as maneuverable as I'd like. I purchased a P15 for Alaska, and can't really say bad things about it. But it is maybe just a little too vanilla for my taste?

One of these days, I need to paddle a Dorado or Marlin. I'm just afraid that I'll like it too much.

I also feel that the above the waterline layout of a boat (at least for fishing) is as important as the hydrodynamics of a hull. There are some interesting hulls in production right now, in terms of performance, that just don't seem like they're as optimum as needed for angling use. Granted, there are folks fishing out of these boats, but if you're going to spend that kind of $$ for a fishing kayak, it seems to me like there are better choices available.

Now comes the hard part. I have to agree with kickfish (yikes !!!), and say that the T160 makes for a fine paddling boat, with enough stability that I'm able to stand up in it to pole along, sighting bass. I don't see how I could possibly find it inappropriate for ocean usage.

Regards,
Scott

There is advantage for speed....but, I been on a  Freedom Wiiderness Systems sit on top and I have had better rides on a sit inside.   Freedom was soo tippy.   It was fast. There is a middle ground. I don't want to think about my balance every min. that I am on the water or saltwater.   I been in 2 to 3 grand sit insides.  But, for our fishing the sit on top are the best.

It also depend on body type.  I am 5' 5" and 175 lbs so I cannot say a guy 220 lbs will fit my ride.  Probably, will not.  The slimmer that faster...but...If I have to check my ride very time there is a big wave coming at me....I may just pick up that "Bass Fishing Game" on play station and entry "BASS" because these Pro's think a 10-20 lbs LMB will kick your butt.  Get a 60 lbs bat ray  and see if your 20 lb bass reel will hold up to that.

Ken kickfish

Ken kickfish

One of these days, I need to paddle a Dorado or Marlin. I'm just afraid that I'll like it too much.

The dodo is a great paddling boat.  Objectively,  it paddles very similar to the T-160.  All of the sissies that praise the dodo endlessly at KFS all fail to do the final crucial step...actually go fishing in the boat!  I have likely spent more actual fishing days in the dodo than all other dodo folks combined.  Were it sucked was the fragility and wetness.  You had to be so careful handling the boat it was reeedickulous...one false move and yet another gelcoat repair coming your way.  Surf launches also involved way to much water in the cockpit with no scuppers.  PUmping and sponging for ages.  At mendo that wasn't an issue, and it was boiling chasing nirvana.  With no waves and no scuppers it was super dry and with a few mods very very comfy.  Worth the all the headaches for the extra 0.003 mph?  Mine is sold.