NorCal Kayak Anglers
General => Fish Talk => Topic started by: Hojoman on August 21, 2023, 07:49:28 PM
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August 21,2023
The California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) announced that as of 12:01 a.m. Friday, Sept. 1, 2023, the 50-fathom Rockfish Conservation Area (RCA) boundary line for the Mendocino Groundfish Management Area (GMA) (Cape Mendocino to Point Arena), San Francisco GMA (Point Arena to Pigeon Point) and Central GMA (Pigeon Point to Point Conception), will take effect.
In these GMAs, recreational boat-based groundfish fishing will be ‘offshore only’ and allowed only seaward (away from land) of the 50-fathom boundary line, defined by straight lines connecting waypoints (50 CFR Part 660, Subpart G). Shelf rockfish, slope rockfish and lingcod may be taken seaward of the 50-fathom boundary line, while it will be unlawful to take or possess nearshore rockfish as defined in Title 14, Section 1.91(a)(1), cabezon or greenlings at any depth. In the Southern GMA from Pt. Conception to the U.S.-Mexico border, these same ‘offshore only’ rules will take effect as originally planned on Sept. 16.
During the ‘offshore only’ fishery, fishing gear shall not be deployed shoreward of the 50-fathom RCA boundary line when shelf rockfish, slope rockfish or lingcod are possessed onboard the vessel, however vessels may transit shoreward of the 50-fathom RCA boundary line with these species in possession if no gear is deployed. Additionally, vessels fishing in the adjacent Southern GMA and transiting back to the Central GMA must adhere to the ‘offshore only’ provisions effective in the Central GMA and shall not return with nearshore species aboard. These changes do not apply to shore-based anglers or divers.
CDFW is carefully monitoring the harvest of quillback rockfish from both the recreational and commercial fisheries throughout the state and has taken a series of steps in an effort to reduce quillback rockfish mortality. On Aug. 7, retention of quillback rockfish was prohibited statewide, followed by closure of the recreational nearshore fishery in the Northern GMA, on Aug. 21. Newly available recreational data from the Mendocino, San Francisco and Central GMAs for the second week of August showed double the estimated recreational take and indicated the 2023 quillback rockfish harvest limit specified in federal regulations has been exceeded. This additional in-season action authorized by Title 14, Section 27.20 (e) to adjust the fishing depth is necessary to prevent further overage.
CDFW urges anglers to use best fishing practices to reduce impacts to quillback rockfish and other prohibited groundfish species. These include reducing mortality when releasing fish by utilizing a descending device and relocating to different fishing grounds or switching targets if quillback rockfish or other prohibited species are encountered. CDFW recommends reviewing the Summary of Recreational Groundfish Fishing Regulations page before each trip to ensure anglers are up to date on the most recent groundfish regulations, including a complete list of authorized species.
For details regarding the quillback population estimates and how these changes were developed, please see CDFW’s Quillback Rockfish In-Season Informational Briefing. For information on all groundfish regulations visit CDFW’s Marine Region Groundfish page.
Pursuant to California Code of Regulations Title 14, section 27.20(e), when federal harvest limits are exceeded or projected to be exceeded, CDFW has authority to make in-season changes, including adjustments to bag and sub-bag limits, seasons and depths.
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:jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop
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Very odd moves without data...I told ya', they'd rather have us not fish at all in the long run...
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I'm tired, but does this mean what I think it means?
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Welp, striper season came early this year I guess. Hope next year is better, this is ridiculous.
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The state should refund fishing license fees with this kind of restriction mid year!
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Quillback Rockfish In-season Informational Briefing
Interesting reading material.
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The closure is all about one species?
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Looks blown out next weekend through the closure. :smt013 :smt011
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The closure is all about one species?
Yes - Quillback Rockfish
Paul
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Very odd moves without data...I told ya', they'd rather have us not fish at all in the long run...
That is exactly what they want, and that is exactly what we are going to get.
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Wow. What a load of crap this is. Wtf is wrong with the people making these decisions.
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… this is ridiculous.
Agreed.
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Sad, better call again about my refund...
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Sad, better call again about my refund...
Thought you canceled a few weeks ago.
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Sad, better call again about my refund...
I think the campground will be getting a lot of calls.
Glad I went in July. We had a nice time.
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More woke based decisions, most likely based on a biased problem statement that led to a biased subjective study, maybe studies, which led to poor decisions. The ultimate decision was most likely already made awhile back and just took the right nudges to make it work. Unfortunately, this happens more than most of us want to admit. Research is now rarely objectively conducted in both the hard and soft science fields. Let’s not be naïve. :smt075 : :confused2:
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Who knows about catching quillbacks? What depth of water? Is it common? How do we make this situation better? Mandatory use of descenders? Better handling of fish and fish ID? No take on it just like other no-take species?
I fish usually in 20-50' of water, really near shore, and don't recall ever catching one. If I ever have, it quickly went back into the water (or never left the water) anyway. I don't keep any of the smaller rockfish (chinas, coppers, gophers, etc.) and typically have an okay lingcod and a couple cabs on my stringer. Maybe a vermillion or nice black.
How does stopping me from fishing this whole season (haven't been out yet) help the quillback?
(I typically take the reg changes in stride, but really wondering about this one and curious how full end of nearshore fishing is required for the one species.)
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Guess more clamming opportunity now. Maybe they'll close that next year too :smt012
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Guess more clamming opportunity now. Maybe they'll close that next year too :smt012
Unless you wear a facemask... :smt006
Sturgeon is the next restriction a little birdie told me...stay tuned...
I could be wrong though...
This thread could go nuclear winter quick... :smt044
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Guess more clamming opportunity now. Maybe they'll close that next year too :smt012
Unless you wear a facemask... :smt006
Sturgeon is the next restriction a little birdie told me...stay tuned...
I could be wrong though...
This thread could go nuclear winter quick... :smt044
Jesus! Can I still fish for jack smelt??? WTF!
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Sturgeon is the next restriction a little birdie told me...stay tuned...
I could be wrong though...
Oh no I do hope you're wrong but i get this if they do.
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Guess more clamming opportunity now. Maybe they'll close that next year too :smt012
Unless you wear a facemask... :smt006
Sturgeon is the next restriction a little birdie told me...stay tuned...
I could be wrong though...
This thread could go nuclear winter quick... :smt044
Jesus! Can I still fish for jack smelt??? WTF!
You're funny, I was just gonna ask for some baitfish recipes...yum...bullhead kabobs...oh wait...lemme check da regs...certainly no eel grass garnish... :smt006
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Announcement on Bluegill’s closure next week.
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I fish usually in 20-50' of water, really near shore, and don't recall ever catching one. If I ever have, it quickly went back into the water (or never left the water) anyway. I don't keep any of the smaller rockfish (chinas, coppers, gophers, etc.) and typically have an okay lingcod and a couple cabs on my stringer. Maybe a vermillion or nice black.
Coppers are not smaller rockfish. Coppers get much bigger than chinas or gophers. I have caught many over 20” over the years.
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How does stopping me from fishing this whole season (haven't been out yet) help the quillback?
There are plenty of other fish near shore besides rockfish and lings. The flatfish are better eating imo which includes sand sole, rock sole, California halibut, sand dabs and starry flounder. There are a few kinds of perch, striper and White Sea bass too. If I lived near the Bay Area, I would be targeting White Sea bass cause they rarely show up north. Also there is sturgeon until they tighten the regs some more on those as well. Also it’s thresher shark season which is plenty of meat for your catch and a blast to catch as well. It will only improve your catch rate in general if you adapt and learn to target other fish. Rockfish and lings are some of the easiest to catch fish which makes it not much of a sport or challenge.
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How does stopping me from fishing this whole season (haven't been out yet) help the quillback?
There are plenty of other fish near shore besides rockfish and lings. The flatfish are better eating imo which includes sand sole, rock sole, California halibut, sand dabs and starry flounder. There are a few kinds of perch, striper and White Sea bass too. If I lived near the Bay Area, I would be targeting White Sea bass cause they rarely show up north. Also there is sturgeon until they tighten the regs some more on those as well. Also it’s thresher shark season which is plenty of meat for your catch and a blast to catch as well. It will only improve your catch rate in general if you adapt and learn to target other fish. Rockfish and lings are some of the easiest to catch fish which makes it not much of a sport or challenge.
Boom, that’s my kinda thinkin’. :smt006
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More woke based decisions
It is funny to see how people use this term “woke.” It’s like a secret phrase used as a pejorative by people who are often brainwashed by extremist right-wing media personalities. Science, facts, and colored people are all woke now, depending who you ask.
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How does stopping me from fishing this whole season (haven't been out yet) help the quillback?
There are plenty of other fish near shore besides rockfish and lings. The flatfish are better eating imo which includes sand sole, rock sole, California halibut, sand dabs and starry flounder. There are a few kinds of perch, striper and White Sea bass too. If I lived near the Bay Area, I would be targeting White Sea bass cause they rarely show up north. Also there is sturgeon until they tighten the regs some more on those as well. Also it’s thresher shark season which is plenty of meat for your catch and a blast to catch as well. It will only improve your catch rate in general if you adapt and learn to target other fish. Rockfish and lings are some of the easiest to catch fish which makes it not much of a sport or challenge.
A very reasonable and sensible attitude, and I'd be a lot more open to adopting that attitude if no-take and a descender mandate had been tried, and had failed.
On the bright side, we get to have winter threads year-round now.
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More woke based decisions
It is funny to see how people use this term “woke.” It’s like a secret phrase used as a pejorative by people who are often brainwashed by extremist right-wing media personalities. Science, facts, and colored people are all woke now, depending who you ask.
No, you don't get to define 'woke' by your interpretation on how you perceive others to mean it. Well, not unless you are a mind reader...
In this instance, woke means (and in my opinion) emotional reaction. In other words, woke is the opposite of science and facts, it is purely emotional reaction. I will say it again, to be sure I'm making myself clear: the whole woke movement is based solely on emotion, not science and not facts.
For example, the Sacramento Kings announcer, Grant Napier, was fired after over 30 years as the Kings announcer because he said, "all lives matter". Woosh! A career, nay, a CALLING of his life's work because of the woke reaction to his statement. Yet, 2 nights ago, Lester Holt, NBC nightly news, said those exact same words in his broadcast.
I am disappointed in the fishing reg changes but make no mistake about it: it's not based on science, it's not based on facts, it is based on emotions by those who personify all game animals to the point they will tie up the budgets of CDFW or other agencies in court though lawsuits. Those agencies now have a decision to make: fire every field officer and hire a bunch of lawyers or roll over and continue to have the game animals as the top priority.
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More woke based decisions
It is funny to see how people use this term “woke.” It’s like a secret phrase used as a pejorative by people who are often brainwashed by extremist right-wing media personalities. Science, facts, and colored people are all woke now, depending who you ask.
Interesting take, Pat. Seems to be used for so many things these days.
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You are correct, Jerry. The term has been hijacked and warped into something else. Based on the most frequently-used terminology, Jesus was extremely woke.
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No, you don't get to define 'woke' by your interpretation on how you perceive others to mean it. Well, not unless you are a mind reader...
In this instance, woke means …
Irony?
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You are correct, Jerry. The term has been hijacked and warped into something else. Based on the most frequently-used terminology, Jesus was extremely woke.
Its a dog whistle word that means whatever the reader thinks it should mean.
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It isn't uncommon to catch rock fish when fishing for halibut, and both the quillback and california halibut live in similar depths of water. If the quillback population is in such dire need of protection, how does it make sense that the halibut season is still open? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that we still have something to fish for in the ocean, but it sounds like CDFW is talking out of both sides of their mouth on this one.
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Okay, I read the "Quillback Rockfish Inseason Informational Briefing" and still don't get it, and it sure looks like someone at CDFW is looking at a different fish than we are. Because the Quillbacks I (rarely) catch DO NOT suffer barotrauma - they are if anything even more eager than Blues to return to the depths. I have NEVER SEEN a "floater" Quillback. So a zero-take limit (which for some reason they never tried, and the gobbledegook in the briefing does not explain why not) would solve the problem.
I also have to wonder if they really have any data showing overfishing of Quills here in Mendocino. And I very much doubt their assumption that 76% of them are taken by recreational anglers - when the inshore live-fish stick-riggers are out there vacuuming up every Black-and-Yellow, China, and Quill they can find (those being prized by the live-fish market).
I just called a left a message for Mr. Phillips so will see if he can provide any clarity. I recommend everyone else do the same; our voices need to be heard.
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We have been here before on other comment post, ultimately this is about saving the commercial fishing and not about saving recreational fishing. Think whatever you want but commercial fishing is destroying the fish population and these are last ditch efforts to try to save these money makers. Bottom line is we can no longer feed the commercial sales and the true effort to save fish population would be to only allow local harvest, this means, you want to eat it, catch it yourself. When I say commercial, I define as large scale harvest to sell nation and global wide, party boats with more than seven fishermen on board and any small scale sales (like the guys on youtube who catch all they can with small boat or kayak and then sell to locals. It is not going to get better, will only get more restrictive in coming years. I get notices about new fishing regulations throughout the U.S. and this is happening all over with many different species of fish. These are my feelings, really hope I am wrong, Ron.
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We have been here before on other comment post, ultimately this is about saving the commercial fishing and not about saving recreational fishing. Think whatever you want but commercial fishing is destroying the fish population and these are last ditch efforts to try to save these money makers. Bottom line is we can no longer feed the commercial sales and the true effort to save fish population would be to only allow local harvest, this means, you want to eat it, catch it yourself. When I say commercial, I define as large scale harvest to sell nation and global wide, party boats with more than seven fishermen on board and any small scale sales (like the guys on youtube who catch all they can with small boat or kayak and then sell to locals. It is not going to get better, will only get more restrictive in coming years. I get notices about new fishing regulations throughout the U.S. and this is happening all over with many different species of fish. These are my feelings, really hope I am wrong, Ron.
I think this is probably true. As with pretty much anything that happens in politics, follow the money. Fishing industries, ie commercial and charters, have money and lobbyists. Kayakers and rec anglers don't have any organized front that I am aware of, which means we are also not contributing financially to the discussion. So, until we can produce similar funds that commercial fishing industry can, we probably are gonna get screwed with the regs.
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If you can't deploy lines in the water within the restriction zone, how do you fish for halibut, salmon, threshers or anything else?
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You are correct, Jerry. The term has been hijacked and warped into something else. Based on the most frequently-used terminology, Jesus was extremely woke.
the only "woke" that I care about...
I WOKE the fuck up and went fishing :smt044
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You are correct, Jerry. The term has been hijacked and warped into something else. Based on the most frequently-used terminology, Jesus was extremely woke.
the only "woke" that I care about...
I WOKE the fuck up and went fishing :smt044
wakey, wakey… :smt006
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This whole thing is pretty crazy.
Just seems like there are so many ways they could have gone about this without having a complete closure. Gear restrictions like barbless hooks, mandatory descenders, etc.
To shut down an entire fishery over a single species that, by all means, can be safely released when caught just seems extreme.
Meanwhile commercial is free and open to fish wherever....
I'm really curious just where all these quillbacks are reportedly being caught.
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If you can't deploy lines in the water within the restriction zone, how do you fish for halibut, salmon, threshers or anything else?
"During the ‘offshore only’ fishery, fishing gear shall not be deployed shoreward of the 50-fathom RCA boundary line when shelf rockfish, slope rockfish or lingcod are possessed onboard the vessel..."
As long as you aren't in possession of rockfish or lingcod, you can fish shoreward of the 50 fathom line.
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I wonder if a large percentage of outdoors people not buying fishing or hunting licenses until their voices and opinions are taken into consideration would make the fish and game commission take heed.
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How does stopping me from fishing this whole season (haven't been out yet) help the quillback?
There are plenty of other fish near shore besides rockfish and lings. The flatfish are better eating imo which includes sand sole, rock sole, California halibut, sand dabs and starry flounder. There are a few kinds of perch, striper and White Sea bass too. If I lived near the Bay Area, I would be targeting White Sea bass cause they rarely show up north. Also there is sturgeon until they tighten the regs some more on those as well. Also it’s thresher shark season which is plenty of meat for your catch and a blast to catch as well. It will only improve your catch rate in general if you adapt and learn to target other fish. Rockfish and lings are some of the easiest to catch fish which makes it not much of a sport or challenge.
I asked lots of reasonable questions (I think) about why a full near-shore closure of all fishing helps the quillback and possible approaches to limit impact on the species. I appreciate your guidance towards other fish (could tell me to go to the Owens River to catch some trout! surfperch love MOTR grubs!) but I was asking why a single species demands a full shutdown and how we could reasonably address that. I know you are a better saltwater fisherman than me but the above is not an answer. But a copper is not a smaller rockfish! (I said I don't keep them anyway.) For example, why is it different from other zero-catch species that don't shut the entire (shortened) season down.
I said I'm happy to roll with normal reg changes, just would appreciate some information (data) behind this one.
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The water tends to get murky really fast in ncka discussions
There are a couple of fisheries science people who could shed some light on all of this. Clayman comes to mind and some others i can’t think of at the moment
There are also some heavier hitters but that would be a start
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I don't thin I have EVER caught a quillback rockfish from Half Moon Bay on down to SLO. My impression has always been they just do not live here? Or, are extremely rare? How often do you guys in Sonoma and Mendo get them while fishing nearshore? I suspect it's the usual overreach reaction from DFW...
and, I do not like it.
Bushy
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so I loose my phone in Spring Lake on sun afternoon, Get back on here on Tues nite and WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whatever the BS that took over,
WE ONLY HAVE 1 SATURDAY LEFT OF FISHING
THAT SUCKS!!
Sorry Honey, I'm going fishing!
Scotty
I've never caught a Quillback
in Sonoma or Mendo Co.
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so I loose my phone in Spring Lake on sun afternoon, Get back on here on Tues nite and WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whatever the BS that took over,
WE ONLY HAVE 1 SATURDAY LEFT OF FISHING
THAT SUCKS!!
Sorry Honey, I'm going fishing!
Scotty
I've never caught a Quillback
in Sonoma or Mendo Co.
Saturday looks windy. Best to call in sick Thursday or Friday. It’s gonna be crowded.
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I rarely catch quillback unless I’m fishing 120ft or deeper. The quillback fishery is healthy. The data or pseudoscience that CADFW is using is horsehit
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Bushy wrote:
<snipped> . . . How often do you guys in Sonoma and Mendo get them while fishing nearshore?
I have never caught a Quillback in either county. Also not in Humboldt.
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Bushy wrote:<snipped> . . . How often do you guys in Sonoma and Mendo get them while fishing nearshore?
I have never caught a Quillback in either county. Also not in Humboldt.
Nearshore quillback do exist in shallower water but they are nursery stock I believe. Caught a few in 60-80' but they were less than 8" in length. They get larger the deeper you go.
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Would it be legal to fish the usual halibut beaches in 40 to 100 feet of water if no rockfish are retained? I don’t see why not, as long you claim to be targeting halibut…
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Yes. You can still fish inside the 50 fathom line, but you can’t keep or have any rockfish aboard
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Would it be legal to fish the usual halibut beaches in 40 to 100 feet of water if no rockfish are retained? I don’t see why not, as long you claim to be targeting halibut…
Correct. You can fish shallower than 50fm, but you can’t retain any RCG caught.
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Yeah, I've never caught a quillback here in Sonoma. Guess no lings for me this year
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I'm starting to get worried about unsafe yakkers attempting to find rockfish with these restrictions. Multiple posts in FnS going up about: how far to 50 fathom, or closest spot to rockfish?
Joe could we add a section regarding safety for nearshore boaters? If only this restriction had a slot like 10-50 fathoms or something. We are all mentioning never seeing quillback below 100' deep anyways. Just impossible to enforce I think is the issue.
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I'm starting to get worried about unsafe yakkers attempting to find rockfish with these restrictions. Multiple posts in FnS going up about: how far to 50 fathom, or closest spot to rockfish?
Joe could we add a section regarding safety for nearshore boaters? If only this restriction had a slot like 10-50 fathoms or something. We are all mentioning never seeing quillback below 100' deep anyways. Just impossible to enforce I think is the issue.
https://tinyurl.com/MPAand50FMRCA
It's pretty far out there
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Gotta love California. Decriminalizes drugs, theft, anything that is a public nuisance, severely restricts the ability of law enforcement to enforce the few laws that still remain and releases those that are convicted of serious crimes early, buuuuuut criminalizes fishing. And you can bet that is one they will enforce and punish to the fullest extent possible. California leadership at its finest.
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More woke based decisions, most likely based on a biased problem statement that led to a biased subjective study, maybe studies, which led to poor decisions. The ultimate decision was most likely already made awhile back and just took the right nudges to make it work. Unfortunately, this happens more than most of us want to admit. Research is now rarely objectively conducted in both the hard and soft science fields. Let’s not be naïve. :smt075 : :confused2:
Clarification: First and foremost my use of the term "woke" was in a much larger context (more than the common understood definition found in social media searches. That is where they want to keep you). There is clearly a "woke" ideology found in environmental issues. Let me make myself clear that I am in no way of speaking about "woke" in a social justice context. Period. No whistles no parties. Let's get pass that conversation. I am speaking to a clear agenda in the way we view our natural resources and now manage them as well. Welcome to reality. It is challenging to have it both ways.
My main point was regarding how decisions are made and studies are approached by so many researchers/universities/organizations. My opinion is based on years of teaching graduate level research and writing, test, measurement and assessment and alike classes. My view comes from reading hundreds of dissertations, thesis and advising students. I have come to the conclusion that most researchers come with their own prejudices/agendas to a study and do their best to stay there as well. There is often a clear emotional/agenda (often politically motivated) that is dragged into the research which leads the author or team to ignore other possible independent variables from the beginning and other even secondary findings that may have significance to their conclusions (many time blindly ignored). I believe some of this behavior is based from ego and pride; but can also be political from the individual or institution's agendas. Consider who is picking up the tab. I am not saying this lack of true research is in every study, but a great wise and educated man once told me, "everyone has an agenda". And yes I had an agenda as well in teaching the classes. I wanted students to keep their eyes wide open and honestly attempt to disapprove their own thinking. It was only then, could we find the unspoken truth beyond our own prejudices of the study.
On point, I have never caught a quillback. California, as well as many other states are closing the lids tight. I truly hope our resources are not at a tipping point where we are in need to continue to prescribe such drastic closing measures.
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As fun as it is to blame bad data and greedy fishermen and "woke" scientists funded by Lester Holt and George Soros, I'll take a step back and assume that the data are relatively sound. The fishermen aren't that greedy. The "woke" scientists are just doing their jobs.
Keep in mind that fish populations are not typically static, and that fishing is not the only potential stressor on a population. Remove all fishing from the equation, and you can expect fluctuations and variability in a population over time due to a range of factors. Poor recruitment, hypoxic zones, poor juvenile rearing conditions, predation, etc. The ocean is always changing, even moreso these days post-Industrial Revolution.
Quillback rockfish mature at 4-6 years of age. Many NorCal kelp beds transformed into urchin barrens about 8-9 years ago. Although adult quillbacks typically live in deeper waters, the juveniles rear in shallow nearshore waters. Could kelp beds be a critical habitat attribute required by juvenile quillback rockfish? We know a lot of rockfish species love to rear in kelp beds, maybe quillbacks are particularly in need of them.
A viable population needs high enough recruitment to replace the older fish. We could be entering a situation where there's a severe lack of younger cohorts. This is noted in the 2021 quillback stock assessment: a significant lack of younger fish in the samples. It does not bode well for the future of the population.
Assume you have a retirement home that consists of an isolated population of people. You walk into the retirement home and see a lot of old people, and claim "so many people, this population is doing fine." But how does the future of that population look? There are almost no younger people in the home. Eventually, one way or another, you can expect those old people to pass on with no younger people to replace them.
The kelp bed die-off of the last decade is just one off-the-cuff example of what may be happening to quillback rockfish. Ask a rockfish expert, and they'll probably provide a dozen other plausible explanations.
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I know I berate the commercial fishing industry a lot, I do recall when Monterey had a canning industry and there was a time when fish were so plentiful in streams that you could catch them with your hands. So why some of your points are correct what I am trying to say is there was once a time when the fishing industry caught fish for local use, then as industry started to grow and it was able to ship overseas they started to catch more and at some point I do not think a local area of fish can be caught to support a world population. It is possible this is where the point you make, that so many fish are caught the populations decreases to the point we have to put restrictions on catch and limit until it rebounds and then we repeat until we continue the cycle. I know right now if we step back for just our small area of the globe and look at the world, we are loosing fish population from overfishing, look at the Chinese fleet that have overfished their seas and now they transverse the globe to decimate other parts of the seas, like countries of south america. Look at shark population, they have been on the planet for over eight million years and are now overfished for what, their fins, for shark fin soup. This is a problem which is only getting bigger, So what to do if we really want to save the aquatic life for years to come, Ron.
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I'm really curious just where all these quillbacks are reportedly being caught.
Anecdotally, Crescent City had a banner year for quillback this year. I saw several reports with a retained quillback and a note that there were several others encountered.
I have caught several quillback in CC before. I don't recall ever catching one south of there.
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The truth has the quality that everyone notices when it’s absent
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I know I berate the commercial fishing industry a lot, I do recall when Monterey had a canning industry and there was a time when fish were so plentiful in streams that you could catch them with your hands.
That's true, overfishing killed the canning industry, can read all about it all over how greedy fishing was, and how the government took over the fishery to supply food for WWII. But it also was in fault of the DFG not taking measures to protect the resource and when they did it was all too late, and not well implemented. More factors than that as well, I found an article I read a few years ago about it: https://swfsc-publications.fisheries.noaa.gov/publications/CR/2000/2000ParrR2.pdf
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I finally connected with James Phillips, who made the decision to close the nearshore fishery. Interesting conversation. He was very open and forthright about the rationale and the way in which CDFW manages these fisheries. I encourage everyone who has a serious interest in learning about the way this all works to contact him.
He sent me a link to one of the documents that bears on this matter: https://www.pcouncil.org/documents/2022/11/h-4-a-supplemental-gmt-report-3.pdf/
It's only decipherable to those with some scientific background. Fortunately that includes me.
Unfortunately my initial read-through suggests there is some very bad science going into these decisions. In this specific case, as I suspected, there appears to be little or no actual data specific to Quillbacks on post-release mortality, especially if using a descender. So the numbers used in their modeling are based on grouping all the demersal (bottom-dwelling) rockfish together - meaning the same numbers are applied to Quillbacks and Gophers. As I am sure most of you will agree, these two species are vastly different; Gophers almost never swim back down on their own, Quillbacks almost always do. So I fear there is bad science here that is leading to poor decisions.
There's more and it will take me some time to really dig into it. One other disturbing fact he related is that the entire Quillback population from Cape Mendocino to Pigeon Point is treated as one number. So regardless of what happened here in Mendocino, if the numbers from San Francisco look bad, we lose.
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We caught lots of quillback at Reading rock on the one trip we went out there this year. We also caught lots of coppers too as well as several yelloweye. The quillback seemed to go back on their own, but I was descending all fish we didn’t keep anyways. I think I caught a quillback at the Cape once or twice and I agave caught a few in Shelter Cove fishing the deeper reef outside of the red can and south.
The only place I saw that might be within reasonable kayak range was out of Van Damme and off of Pt Cabrillo. Looking at maps, the spot is either just at the 50 fathom line or just barely inside of it. There is two spots I saw and both are just under 3 miles out which isn’t bad at all. The spot off Pt Cabrillo is only 2.4 miles out which is even better, but I don’t know how easy it is to launch there. More than likely, the spots are just inside of the 50 fathom line. Anyone have the GPS coordinates for the 50fathom line around Albion and Van Damme area?
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Well that’s a bunch of BS . It’s a good thing I paid for a useless fishing license .
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I finally connected with James Phillips, who made the decision to close the nearshore fishery. Interesting conversation. He was very open and forthright about the rationale and the way in which CDFW manages these fisheries. I encourage everyone who has a serious interest in learning about the way this all works to contact him.
He sent me a link to one of the documents that bears on this matter: https://www.pcouncil.org/documents/2022/11/h-4-a-supplemental-gmt-report-3.pdf/
It's only decipherable to those with some scientific background. Fortunately that includes me.
Unfortunately my initial read-through suggests there is some very bad science going into these decisions. In this specific case, as I suspected, there appears to be little or no actual data specific to Quillbacks on post-release mortality, especially if using a descender. So the numbers used in their modeling are based on grouping all the demersal (bottom-dwelling) rockfish together - meaning the same numbers are applied to Quillbacks and Gophers. As I am sure most of you will agree, these two species are vastly different; Gophers almost never swim back down on their own, Quillbacks almost always do. So I fear there is bad science here that is leading to poor decisions.
There's more and it will take me some time to really dig into it. One other disturbing fact he related is that the entire Quillback population from Cape Mendocino to Pigeon Point is treated as one number. So regardless of what happened here in Mendocino, if the numbers from San Francisco look bad, we lose.
:smt031? ass/u/me... poor research methodology and/or inconclusive, nevertheless, poor decisions are made anyway or in an irrational manner for us fishers. This situation is not fun, but actually rather sad. And yes, I also have a degree in natural resources management... and $7.00 still get me a great beer at Wolf House Brewing Co like everyone else.
"I think I just want to go home now" - Forrest Gump....replaced with the words of Dr.Dave...I just want to go fishing now
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I caught and released a Quillback at Fort Ross last year.
The thing that bothers me about these kind of decisions and regulations is the complete disregard for how it affects people and businesses.
It's sort of human nature to not be concerned about things that don't affect you. When they announced the closure for the North management area, I shrugged and thought "Well it sucks to be them, but it doesn't affect me." - Oops.
As an example, I'm not a gun owner, and I would like to see some more restrictions on who can own what, but I do understand that people have interests and passions that differ from mine, and I shouldn't disregard those passions completely.
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I caught and released a Quillback at Fort Ross last year.
The thing that bothers me about these kind of decisions and regulations is the complete disregard for how it affects people and businesses.
It's sort of human nature to not be concerned about things that don't affect you. When they announced the closure for the North management area, I shrugged and thought "Well it sucks to be them, but it doesn't affect me." - Oops.
As an example, I'm not a gun owner, and I would like to see some more restrictions on who can own what, but I do understand that people have interests and passions that differ from mine, and I shouldn't disregard those passions completely.
Rockfish is closing, might as well start the winter gun thread now.
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I caught and released a Quillback at Fort Ross last year.
The thing that bothers me about these kind of decisions and regulations is the complete disregard for how it affects people and businesses.
It's sort of human nature to not be concerned about things that don't affect you. When they announced the closure for the North management area, I shrugged and thought "Well it sucks to be them, but it doesn't affect me." - Oops.
As an example, I'm not a gun owner, and I would like to see some more restrictions on who can own what, but I do understand that people have interests and passions that differ from mine, and I shouldn't disregard those passions completely.
This is where the saying comes from: "Things will need to get worse before they get better." The activist government here has run out of good causes, and their favorite tool is restrictions. So all they have left is restricting nice things because they need a cause like they need oxygen. Until the nice things that more people like are affected, they'll be more than happy to turn a blind eye when someone else's nice thing gets restricted.
The whale/crab trap thing is a great example. Protections have been successful and populations are up, resulting in the occasional entanglement. This is evidence of a thriving whale population, but it is turned into a reason to restrict crabbing, something people have done for many many years, because it is a public display (virtue signaling) of exercising power over others "for a good cause," whether it's helpful or worth the negative effects or not. Same principle was in effect during Covid times. Publicly and frequently show you "care" over and over again with regulation updates regardless of who you hurt in the process because you need to constantly affirm what team you're on.
These public displays are now the norm and it's impossible and silly to separate the policies in Cali from the voting habits of the people here, who get off on restricting the activities of others in a public, visible manner. A Whole Foods store nearby has a sign that says "More than __ items have been banned from this store." I know we're supposed to assume they were banned for some "good" reason, but that reason isn't even mentioned. The culture is that banning is always good, and the sign really captured it.
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I emailed the director at CDFW and got this generic response they sent to multiple people. The data they referenced for the quillback is not recent and from 2021. https://www.pcouncil.org/documents/2021/12/status-of-quillback-rockfish-sebastes-maliger-in-u-s-waters-off-the-coast-of-california-in-2021-using-catch-and-length-data-december-2021.pdf/
Hi Michael,
Thank you for sharing your concern regarding the in-season changes for the Nearshore Groundfish Fishery. Groundfish regulations are established in cooperation with the federal government through the Pacific Fishery Management Council (PFMC) and with significant input from stakeholders like you. Using the best scientific information available from recent population assessments, the status of quillback rockfish throughout California is in severe decline.
To help protect quillback, 2023 regulations included a 1-fish sub-bag limit, a shortened season length, and allowing fishing at deeper depths for the first time in two decades in an effort to spread fishing effort away from the nearshore waters where quillback rockfish are most commonly found. These measures (in combination) were intended to reduce the overall catch of quillback while still allowing for fishing opportunities for other species of groundfish.
Unfortunately, catch of quillback rockfish continued and the harvest limits, including the Overfishing Limit, has been exceeded, with more catch expected if additional changes to regulations were not taken. When anglers fish for nearshore rockfish, it is impossible to know which species might be caught. Minimizing catch of one species, like quillback, often requires closing fishing in areas and depths where other groundfish are found.
Commercial retention has been prohibited and any further consideration of closures or depth changes for commercial fisheries will take place at the upcoming September Council meeting.
If you would like to get involved with recreational groundfish regulations in your management area, we highly recommend talking with your local sportfishing representatives from the Pacific Fishery Management Council’s (PFMC) Groundfish Advisory Subpanel to see how you can get involved. For more information on the process, including how to get involved, visit the following websites:
PFMC (pcouncil.org)
PFMC – How to Get Involved
For details on how and why the decision to close nearshore fishing was made, see CDFW’s Quillback Rockfish In-Season Informational Briefing. For more information on groundfish management and recreational groundfish regulations you can check out CDFWs Groundfish Website and CDFWs Summary of Recreational Groundfish Fishing Regulations webpage. If you have additional questions and would like more clarification, please feel free to contact me.
Sincerely,
Wildlife Ask Marine
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Thanks Michael. That's really helpful. I wish the had better outreach and forewarning to the angling population about these decisions.
I also think there must be other forms of management rather than a complete shutdown. Huge schools of blue rockfish out there.
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It would be interesting to see if a consideration for long leader gear would be given. Might be a bit of a hassle in the kayak, but totally doable and it would target the midwater fish while leaving the bottom dwellers alone.
https://myodfw.com/articles/offshore-longleader-gear
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It would be interesting to see if a consideration for long leader gear would be given. Might be a bit of a hassle in the kayak, but totally doable and it would target the midwater fish while leaving the bottom dwellers alone.
https://myodfw.com/articles/offshore-longleader-gear
The longleader fishery is great but you have to be outside 40 fathoms. I don’t think it would work to protect juvenile quill back to allow it closer than that. Oregon has the same problems with coppers chinas and quill backs that we do.
https://www.dfw.state.or.us/MRP/finfish/docs/2023_what_can_i_keep.pdf
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It would be interesting to see if a consideration for long leader gear would be given. Might be a bit of a hassle in the kayak, but totally doable and it would target the midwater fish while leaving the bottom dwellers alone.
https://myodfw.com/articles/offshore-longleader-gear
The longleader fishery is great but you have to be outside 40 fathoms. I don’t think it would work to protect juvenile quill back to allow it closer than that. Oregon has the same problems with coppers chinas and quill backs that we do.
https://www.dfw.state.or.us/MRP/finfish/docs/2023_what_can_i_keep.pdf
I did not see an issue with chinas in the link provided. Where did you get this info?
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I just read an interesting article about how whales are following trolling fishing boat to eat the fish that escape the nets, at first glance they say this is good and show the wales are getting fish to eat. However when you talk to the biologist they give a different story. They think that the whales are not well fed and can not find good food sources so they are following the trolling boats as that is where the fish they would eat are and in fact they can be in a very bad state of health. In addition they have also notice that orcas are attacking large full size whales to eat and this is not normal as it is very dangerous as a quick swipe of the whales tail can cause severe injury. So this is a new behavior that can be attributed to less food for them. Now regarding D-crab, a new market in Asia is to just eat the crab legs and this is much cheaper to ship the legs as opposed to the whole body with legs attached and as this market will grow, this could cause a end to the D-crab population in a few years. This could be true with the introduction of a new crab trap that uses a inflatable float that can be activated by remote control so there is no need to have a line with a float. This means there will be no need to cut the season short to protect the whales and could also lead to a black market catching crab out of season. So again these are all indications of a not health eco system in out oceans and commercial fishing is at the heart of the problems, just my opinion, thank you all for your views, Ron.
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I have never caught a quillback from the San Mateo Coast on down.
Bushy
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I have never caught a quillback from the San Mateo Coast on down.
Bushy
+1. On another note, caught quite a few of Coppers on almost every trip this year.
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It would be interesting to see if a consideration for long leader gear would be given. Might be a bit of a hassle in the kayak, but totally doable and it would target the midwater fish while leaving the bottom dwellers alone.
https://myodfw.com/articles/offshore-longleader-gear
The longleader fishery is great but you have to be outside 40 fathoms. I don’t think it would work to protect juvenile quill back to allow it closer than that. Oregon has the same problems with coppers chinas and quill backs that we do.
https://www.dfw.state.or.us/MRP/finfish/docs/2023_what_can_i_keep.pdf
I did not see an issue with chinas in the link provided. Where did you get this info?
The minor nearshore complex historically included China, copper, quillback, black-and-yellow, brown, calico, gopher,
grass, kelp, olive, and treefish rockfishes.
Minor nearshore complex has two management areas for the PFMC, north and south of 40 degrees 10 minutes north. Chinas are/were a problem in the north management group. QUillbacks have been seperated out of the minor nearshore complex and are managed separately.
China, copper, and qullback were constraining species in the north. Quillback and copper are constraining species in the south.
https://www.pcouncil.org/documents/2022/03/f-4-attachment-2-2023-2024-management-measure-analytical-document-electronic-only.pdf/
Vermillion are also constraining and were a part of the minor shelf rockfish.
More and more, the constraining species will be pulled out of the minor complexes and managed separately.
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I rarely catch quillback unless I’m fishing 120ft or deeper. The quillback fishery is healthy. The data or pseudoscience that CADFW is using is horsehit
I'm a biologist and I'm going to have to agree Rob. Been kayak fishing the Sonoma and Mendocino Coasts since '05 and only caught 2 before and they were around 75 feet deep. Both let go as I knew how old they were and they are one of the rockfish that really don't have much meat. I sincerely doubt folks caught a couple thousand pounds of quillback rockfish, in just 4 weeks?? They don't get too large, so maybe at 1.5 lbs each that is a lot of quillbacks CDFW is saying that were caught. I call complete BS. What I really think happened is extreme extrapolation of few data points. Notice how the actual cath data isn't reported just percentages. How about actual data and locations with error bars, so we know it's real. I hate to say it but until someone sues CDFW to see the actual data, this will continue. Rockfish might well become the new red snapper fishery in the Gulf, where it gets opened a couple weekends a year.
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I have never caught a quillback from the San Mateo Coast on down.
Bushy
+1. On another note, caught quite a few of Coppers on almost every trip this year.
I also have never caught (or seen) a Quillback anywhere......because I like to fish for near shore rockfish typically in 50' or less.
Seems stupid to force people to fish in deeper water to protect a fish that probably lives primarily there and will have a harder time returning to considering the depths.
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I just bought the license for bat fishing and have not fished yet. I just found out about this yesterday because I am about to take my boat out. I will call for refund. :smt044 :smt044
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I have never caught a quillback from the San Mateo Coast on down.
Bushy
+1. On another note, caught quite a few of Coppers on almost every trip this year.
Mee too. Never see this fish.
I also have never caught (or seen) a Quillback anywhere......because I like to fish for near shore rockfish typically in 50' or less.
Seems stupid to force people to fish in deeper water to protect a fish that probably lives primarily there and will have a harder time returning to considering the depths.