NorCal Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing Zone => AOTY => Topic started by: JoeDubC on February 19, 2023, 07:58:56 PM
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Has the AOTY point system ever been modified or is it set in stone?
I feel certain species don't get the points they should based on the impressiveness/desirability/difficulty of the catch.
Just looking at this year's list so far, the most impressive fish - a nearly 28" halibut - only has 138.75 points, while not-so impressive 14.5" crappie gets 174 points.
Rather than changing the points per inch on various fishes, which I think is otherwise pretty well thought-out, I think a better/easier way would be to add base points to any legal sized fish of certain species to boost their overall point score.
For instance:
Sturgeon would get around 75-100 base points.
Salmon would get around 50-75 base points.
Halibut would get around 25-50 base points.
White Sea Bass would get around 50-100 base points.
These are the fish that come to mind as real prizes.
Maybe brown trout could be added to the boosted base fish list, since the regular trout category is inundated with corn-fed stockers.
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Thanks for your suggestions. Nothing is set in stone as far as AOTY point system. I am sure the AOTY panel will discuss and follow-up.
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Huh? A 14.5" crappie is a slab, 28" halibut are a dime a dozen. More finesse for the crappie too.
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I'm open to looking into the point system. But i also agree that a 14.5" crappie is far more impressive for it's species than a 28" halibut. If the goal is to normalize a point spectrum across species, a 14.5" crappie is currnetly equivalent to a 34/35" halibut. Perhaps one or the other could be adjusted, but it's close and it encourages people to focus on seemingly less targeted, fresh-water species.
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My point is that no legal halibut are a dime a dozen. Any keeper is a prize. Same can be said for salmon, sturgeon, WSB. FnS guys are posting huge limits of slab crappies on a weekly basis. I understand about relative size and I think the point system has that covered. But besides relative size I think the more difficult/ desirable species are worthy of more points.
Even a 12” crappie beats a 28” halibut currently.
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I'm open to looking into the point system.
Could you say a little bit about how the current point scales were determined?
I'd think that there's a lot of data from previous AOTY entries, and adjustments could be based on that. Maybe something like 100 for the median fish of a given species, throw out a few of the largest and smallest, then a sliding scale so that the biggest is 200, or some such systematic approach.
Or, you could just ask ChatGPT to come up with a perfect system...
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The points system has been adjusted in the past. Fish have also been added, merged, etc.
I think the point of the competition has always been “who is the best overall angler” as opposed to “who is the best angler for X species”.
You can catch all the 200 point fish of one species you want and it won’t get you very far. Catching 10 different species has always been the challenge, and the way to come out on top. It takes planning, preparation, skill, time investment, and of course luck. But luck is of course what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
Looking back at the last few years there have not been that many people who have been able to post 10 fish.
2022 - 7
2021 - 4
2020 - 4
2019 - 7
2018 - 11
I understand that some fish are “more desirable” than others. I’ve chased them all and am only missing pac hali and steelhead from the kayak. I’ve hooked steelhead from the yak but have yet to land one, but that’s another story.
As far as added base points for “more desirable” fish, I feel that misses the point of being a challenge to be able to catch 10 species across NorCal.
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Without actually looking too hard
10 halibut over 200 point
9 white sea bass over 200 points
6 salmon over 200 points
0 crappie over 200 points.
That’s in AOTY history.
Maybe crappie should be worth more :smt003
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Without actually looking too hard
10 halibut over 200 point
9 white sea bass over 200 points
6 salmon over 200 points
0 crappie over 200 points.
That’s in AOTY history.
Maybe crappie should be worth more :smt003
Well that is interesting. I wonder how those numbers compare with 150 or 180 Pt fish?
I still think it would be a major let down to catch a 42” sturgeon and have it get beat by a crappie. Other than relative size, don’t you think the average hours and skill needed to acquire a specie count for something? Again, that’s why I would add base points instead of changing the point system. Or maybe it’s just gold stars…
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there have not been that many people who have been able CHOSEN to post 10 fish.
Just sayin.
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I may devote my life to catching the first 200 pt crappie!
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Without actually looking too hard
10 halibut over 200 point
9 white sea bass over 200 points
6 salmon over 200 points
0 crappie over 200 points.
That’s in AOTY history.
Maybe crappie should be worth more :smt003
Doesn’t sound like the system is broken to me.
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In the past, I too have wondered if Crappie were "overpowered," but based on Johns data pull, I think it's reasonable. At the end of the day no one fish (or two, or three) is going to win anyone the title, so it's almost a moot point if a specific fish *were* calibrated too high. Doesn't take away from the fact that you still need 9 other fish to make something happen.
there have not been that many people who have been able CHOSEN to post 10 fish.
Just sayin.
This is the truth! Have seen some awesome reports of lifetime PB fish that weren't entered by folks who are registered.
I may devote my life to catching the first 200 pt crappie!
There's gotta be one out there with your name on it!! :smt044
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I may devote my life to catching the first 200 pt crappie!
That would be Weimarian..eternally hunting down that 18” Crappie at Rollins…LOL
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its all personal perspective. halibut are easier in my opinion
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its all personal perspective. halibut are easier in my opinion
+1 on the perspective. I know when I played AOTY, I put in a lot of time trying to catch good-sized panfish. It was really tough! Mostly because panfish aren't something I usually target. But I learned a lot, and that's part of the goal of AOTY: to coax anglers to target fish that they may not typically target.
In contrast, brown trout and salmon were easy for me. They were species I was already familiar with. Slab crappie, not so much.
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So, I’ve brought this up before, but has the committee thought about re-balancing the freshwater species to match the salt water? Once the flatfish was added, we now had 9 SW to 8 FW and the 4 anadromous. I’m not sure what it would be, I always liked going after both SM and spotted bass, but I guess it was too hard for the committee to tell them apart, so they merged them? I’ve fished other online tournaments that separate crappie and have a sperate panfish category. That’s fun hunting larger blue gills and sac perch. I think the biggest non crappie submitted was Chris’s 14.75” sac perch, so set the PPI at 13.25 where a trophy catch would be 15” for 198.75 points? Or make it real tough at 13 points per inch and you would need a tank BG/SP at 15.25/15.50” for trophy points? Those would be a better quality fish than a 17” crappie.
For those living out east like me or the valley folks who may be only get to the north coast a couple times a year, at least having an equal number of FW species can give us a better chance of being competitive. Anyway, just a suggestion. And I want a reason to hunt the lazy fighting sac perch! :smt001
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For fun I totaled up the highest points per species on AOTY's list. There are for sure some species that are harder to catch such as WSB vs a panfish, and history shows that very few wsb have been caught over the years (for aoty). WSB all time high points = 232 and panfish = 198 There is a balance to that comparison though, where it takes time and dedication to catch either species, but there are more opportunities to catch a panfish overall throughout the state. The all time highest point fish looks to be sturgeon at 247.5 points. Both WSB and Sturgeon are very hard to catch, so if you did catch them, it seems they are worth more for the right reason, they are way harder to catch vs. panfish.
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Also a good time to bring up the Crappie Haters Club, for those that chased them far too many times for nothing :smt005
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So, I’ve brought this up before, but has the committee thought about re-balancing the freshwater species to match the salt water? Once the flatfish was added, we now had 9 SW to 8 FW and the 4 anadromous. I’m not sure what it would be, I always liked going after both SM and spotted bass, but I guess it was too hard for the committee to tell them apart, so they merged them? I’ve fished other online tournaments that separate crappie and have a sperate panfish category. That’s fun hunting larger blue gills and sac perch. I think the biggest non crappie submitted was Chris’s 14.75” sac perch, so set the PPI at 13.25 where a trophy catch would be 15” for 198.75 points? Or make it real tough at 13 points per inch and you would need a tank BG/SP at 15.25/15.50” for trophy points? Those would be a better quality fish than a 17” crappie.
For those living out east like me or the valley folks who may be only get to the north coast a couple times a year, at least having an equal number of FW species can give us a better chance of being competitive. Anyway, just a suggestion. And I want a reason to hunt the lazy fighting sac perch! :smt001
Hey Scott! The committee talked over these subjects 6-7 years back. Combining the smallmouth and spotted bass categories wasn't something we really wanted to do, but we were kinda forced into it. Lake Berryessa kicked out a lot of hybrids, so anglers were submitting fish as smallmouth bass when they looked more like hybrids. It was a great strategy, because you'd get the length of a spotted bass but the points of a smallmouth. But it ultimately wasn't fair to the other anglers, and put the committee in the position of trying to put the hybrids in either the smallmouth or spotted bass category (it was a no-win situation). Seems like we don't get many hybrids entered into AOTY nowadays, so maybe we could separate the two species into their own respective categories again?
The panfish/non crappie category was also discussed. It never really got much traction among the committee, but maybe things would be different now. Give those Sac perch a whirl! They're incredibly different to target compared to the other panfish, mostly because they don't school and are pretty timid.
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For fun I totaled up the highest points per species on AOTY's list. There are for sure some species that are harder to catch such as WSB vs a panfish, and history shows that very few wsb have been caught over the years (for aoty). WSB all time high points = 232 and panfish = 198 There is a balance to that comparison though, where it takes time and dedication to catch either species, but there are more opportunities to catch a panfish overall throughout the state. The all time highest point fish looks to be sturgeon at 247.5 points. Both WSB and Sturgeon are very hard to catch, so if you did catch them, it seems they are worth more for the right reason, they are way harder to catch vs. panfish.
Super interesting Al, could you add a column for the length of a 200pt fish? That might help drive the conversation to see the targets for a "trophy fish". I think most are pretty accurate after being refined over so many years.
I did a math modeling competition in school and its super interesting to see the similarities between creating a model and this game (which is basically a model).
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So, I’ve brought this up before, but has the committee thought about re-balancing the freshwater species to match the salt water? Once the flatfish was added, we now had 9 SW to 8 FW and the 4 anadromous. I’m not sure what it would be, I always liked going after both SM and spotted bass, but I guess it was too hard for the committee to tell them apart, so they merged them? I’ve fished other online tournaments that separate crappie and have a sperate panfish category. That’s fun hunting larger blue gills and sac perch. I think the biggest non crappie submitted was Chris’s 14.75” sac perch, so set the PPI at 13.25 where a trophy catch would be 15” for 198.75 points? Or make it real tough at 13 points per inch and you would need a tank BG/SP at 15.25/15.50” for trophy points? Those would be a better quality fish than a 17” crappie.
For those living out east like me or the valley folks who may be only get to the north coast a couple times a year, at least having an equal number of FW species can give us a better chance of being competitive. Anyway, just a suggestion. And I want a reason to hunt the lazy fighting sac perch! :smt001
Hey Scott! The committee talked over these subjects 6-7 years back. Combining the smallmouth and spotted bass categories wasn't something we really wanted to do, but we were kinda forced into it. Lake Berryessa kicked out a lot of hybrids, so anglers were submitting fish as smallmouth bass when they looked more like hybrids. It was a great strategy, because you'd get the length of a spotted bass but the points of a smallmouth. But it ultimately wasn't fair to the other anglers, and put the committee in the position of trying to put the hybrids in either the smallmouth or spotted bass category (it was a no-win situation). Seems like we don't get many hybrids entered into AOTY nowadays, so maybe we could separate the two species into their own respective categories again?
The panfish/non crappie category was also discussed. It never really got much traction among the committee, but maybe things would be different now. Give those Sac perch a whirl! They're incredibly different to target compared to the other panfish, mostly because they don't school and are pretty timid.
Chris I still haven't been able to find a sac perch on your lake! You would think by now I would just luck into one. :smt013 Almanor has never given me much love, but everyone around me kills it! Cursed!
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Super interesting Al, could you add a column for the length of a 200pt fish? That might help drive the conversation to see the targets for a "trophy fish". I think most are pretty accurate after being refined over so many years.
Here you go!
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I do like the idea of separating crappie from other panfish, since a 12" crappie is no big deal but a 12" bluegill is huge. Sac Perch also get big though, so not sure how that fits in. And that would help balance fresh and salt categories.
When comparing the number and size of 200 pt fish, what that exercise misses is the number and size (and ease of catching) of 150 pt fish, which are what you need in bulk to win.
So even though no Kokanee entered have hit 200 points, 150 pt (14") Kokanee and 150 pt crappie are very common and become easy points in my opinion.
Maybe that's just part of the strategy, get low hanging fruit.
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Thanks Al for doing the work I was too lazy to do!
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Joe
Sounds like you need to Head to Clear Lake and catch some Crappies!
Scotty
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AL that's some awesome data - thanks for doing that!
hey, any chance you could do that with yearly top mean? not sure if you have it automated or not. But if you took the last 10 years, and averaged the biggest for each year, would be interesting to see, though I expect it would normalize out similar to what you already tallied up.
i am a Crappie hater, never caught one, not even while we lived in Houston. But I'm now re-focusing my efforts, I'll be searching out good Crappie lakes and going after them hard! not even joking.
lates,
Brian.
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AL that's some awesome data - thanks for doing that!
hey, any chance you could do that with yearly top mean? not sure if you have it automated or not. But if you took the last 10 years, and averaged the biggest for each year, would be interesting to see, though I expect it would normalize out similar to what you already tallied up.
i am a Crappie hater, never caught one, not even while we lived in Houston. But I'm now re-focusing my efforts, I'll be searching out good Crappie lakes and going after them hard! not even joking.
lates,
Brian.
I’m not computer savvy, but could manually figure something out.
A quick search for crappie in the last 10 years show 36 entered that were over 14.5 inches.
15 or greater inches equals 19.
Halibut 30 or larger equals 75
35 or larger equals 27
37 or larger equals 19
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When comparing the number and size of 200 pt fish, what that exercise misses is the number and size (and ease of catching) of 150 pt fish, which are what you need in bulk to win.
So even though no Kokanee entered have hit 200 points, 150 pt (14") Kokanee and 150 pt crappie are very common and become easy points in my opinion.
Maybe that's just part of the strategy, get low hanging fruit.
It depends on the competition in a given year. Similar to a typical tournament, sometimes you only need one or two 200 point "kicker" fish and a bunch of 150-160 pointers to win. Other years, that strategy isn't going to cut it. Looking back through the archives, you'll see that some years were fiercely competitive.
If you want to win AOTY, you need to strategize early, and be willing to adjust the strategy as the year progresses. Many of the winners plan out an entire year's fishing starting in January. You gotta stick with the game plan all year. That may include fishing for kelp greenling during a hot salmon bite, or trying to catch a big perch when the halibut are in. If you really want to compete for 1st place, these are the sacrifices you need to make. You're fishing a 365 day tournament (366 on the leap years :smt002).
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Reluctant crappie hater here. I vow to try for crappie at least twice this year, unless I catch a 15"er first try, then that will do.
Crappie Backstory: When I was maybe 14, the local perc ponds were de-watering and lots of good sized crappies were viewable in shallow water. I had swiped (5 finger discount) a mini-spin (beetle-spin?) lure from K-mart the day before. As I stood next to my neighbor Keith (RIP), who was using the same lure, he was catching a crappie on every cast, while I couldn't get a strike. There was also a section of chain link on the pond bottom for some reason and after about 10 casts (and about 10 fish for Keith) I snagged and broke off my lure. I tied on another and subsequently lost that one too. I was still a Catholic boy at that age and just knew that God was punishing me for my sin. I never shoplifted again.
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If you want to win AOTY, you need to strategize early, and be willing to adjust the strategy as the year progresses. Many of the winners plan out an entire year's fishing starting in January. You gotta stick with the game plan all year. That may include fishing for kelp greenling during a hot salmon bite, or trying to catch a big perch when the halibut are in. If you really want to compete for 1st place, these are the sacrifices you need to make. You're fishing a 365 day tournament (366 on the leap years :smt002).
Ahhhhh "the" Plan. :smt044. Several years I lived by the plan, but I alas cannot make the plan work anymore (never did anyway). But I can sure have fun trying anyway. :smt005. That's the motto now a days at least, just have fun with it. :smt004
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After working on my taxes I started playing with the AOTY numbers for the last 10 years. Hopefully sometime soon I’ll be able to put together some sort of spreadsheet.
I broke down crappie since they are getting picked on and then the first fish going down the list, rockfish.
Panfish: 316 entered. 44.2% 150 or less points. 84.9% 177 or less points. Highest score 198.
Rockfish: 561 entered. 52.1% 152 or less points. 88% 176 or less points. Highest score 234.
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Rockfish: 561 entered. 52.1% 152 or less points. 88% 176 or less points. Highest score 234.
Bocaccio shouldn't even count, IMO. They're rare kayak catches and often anomalous in terms of size.
I am not immune from wanting a bigger fish - very far from it! But... I really think we need to find ways to not be so enamored with bigger fish. Same thing with limits.
I think I'll stay on the sidelines of AOTY from now on. Watching salmon migrate, spawn and die has been way more fulfilling than catching them, and that's saying a lot.
I'm getting old. Stay off my lawn!
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Now if we could just add Pyramid as an honorary NorCal lake, that would almost become a must-fish water as part of the strategy.
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Now if we could just add Pyramid as an honorary NorCal lake, that would almost become a must-fish water as part of the strategy.
Haha. This was also discussed among the Committee several years ago. Then people wanted to add Klamath Lake, and some lakes in Central CA. Everyone wanted to add their favorite out-of-bounds lake to AOTY. It snowballed really fast.
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What about adding crab! Would be fun to see some trophy jumbos on the list!
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What about adding crab! Would be fun to see some trophy jumbos on the list!
If crabs are added, then crayfish need to be added as well. Balance between the salt and fresh.
Can't wait to see an AOTY winner come on top because of a jumbo crawdad :smt005.
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:laughing7:
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Ahhhhh "the" Plan. :smt044. Several years I lived by the plan, but I alas cannot make the plan work anymore (never did anyway).
Part 2.
So there was this one time, that I'll never be allowed to forget by FM1, that I joined him and his family at South Lake Tahoe for a free stay in a condo his boss owned. We had fun in the snow, went to the casinos, partied, etc, etc. Then I checked the reports and saw that WSB were being caught and though I had caught a few I did so with my full AI and was dying to get one that counted for AOTY. I made us go home the next day, a day early. :smt005. Never will anyone that was there let that story die, bring it up all the fricken time :smt044
Long story short, not only did I get TWO WSB, but also a PB 40" halibut :smt004
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What year was that Al, ur 4th place finisher? Thats awesome, but hope you shares some fillets!
It would also be cool to relax penalties for CnR fish, as keeping mouths closed or getting nice pictures could be tough w a 40+" breeder ling that you don't necessarily want to harvest or some flapping trout gasping for water.
Would be cool to think of a way to get a rough measurement but I understand that it would be tough. Maybe a quick paddle length or fishing pole next to it and then go home and submit a picture with measuring tape next to it for judges to determine?
Its a tough problem for a fish length competition but I agree with Eric that it would be sporting and considerate to these species.
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What year was that Al, ur 4th place finisher? Thats awesome, but hope you shares some fillets!
It would also be cool to relax penalties for CnR fish, as keeping mouths closed or getting nice pictures could be tough w a 40+" breeder ling that you don't necessarily want to harvest or some flapping trout gasping for water.
Would be cool to think of a way to get a rough measurement but I understand that it would be tough. Maybe a quick paddle length or fishing pole next to it and then go home and submit a picture with measuring tape next to it for judges to determine?
Its a tough problem for a fish length competition but I agree with Eric that it would be sporting and considerate to these species.
Agree on this for lings. I'm pretty much all C & R, but especially for big fish. I freaking hate doing the live measure with lings. Not fun. Also, I've measured with and without lip grippers in the side of the mouth for lings and it's basically the same size. You keep them under control (a bit) and don't add extra length. I still like the mouth closed rule for aoty species as it makes everyone's measurements consistent. You can add an 1" plus to a large mouth bass with open mouth. Lip grippers for lings, I'd be in on that. And for true toad lings, as PS mentioned, may be a rough paddle measure might be better than killing it for a measurement? In the end their only a 5 PPI fish, so not a huge benefit if slightly off?
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Now if we could just add Pyramid as an honorary NorCal lake, that would almost become a must-fish water as part of the strategy.
Haha. This was also discussed among the Committee several years ago. Then people wanted to add Klamath Lake, and some lakes in Central CA. Everyone wanted to add their favorite out-of-bounds lake to AOTY. It snowballed really fast.
can we add SD Bay and La Jolla too? ;)
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What about adding crab! Would be fun to see some trophy jumbos on the list!
If crabs are added, then crayfish need to be added as well. Balance between the salt and fresh.
Can't wait to see an AOTY winner come on top because of a jumbo crawdad :smt005.
I know where the giant signals are, and I support this change.
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If crabs are added, then crayfish need to be added as well. Balance between the salt and fresh.
Can't wait to see an AOTY winner come on top because of a jumbo crawdad :smt005.
I approve this message .
:smt003 :smt005
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It would also be cool to relax penalties for CnR fish, as keeping mouths closed or getting nice pictures could be tough w a 40+" breeder ling that you don't necessarily want to harvest or some flapping trout gasping for water.
Would be cool to think of a way to get a rough measurement but I understand that it would be tough. Maybe a quick paddle length or fishing pole next to it and then go home and submit a picture with measuring tape next to it for judges to determine?
Its a tough problem for a fish length competition but I agree with Eric that it would be sporting and considerate to these species.
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Agree on this for lings. I'm pretty much all C & R, but especially for big fish. I freaking hate doing the live measure with lings. Not fun. Also, I've measured with and without lip grippers in the side of the mouth for lings and it's basically the same size. You keep them under control (a bit) and don't add extra length. I still like the mouth closed rule for aoty species as it makes everyone's measurements consistent. You can add an 1" plus to a large mouth bass with open mouth. Lip grippers for lings, I'd be in on that. And for true toad lings, as PS mentioned, may be a rough paddle measure might be better than killing it for a measurement? In the end their only a 5 PPI fish, so not a huge benefit if slightly off?
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I lost a keeper striper this year after removing the grippers to measure it. I think grippers should be allowed with a 1" deduction if necessary. And at Pyramid I released all but 1 keeper with very light handling and only cursory measuring. It would be hard to measure and photo a large fish without stressing it. Grippers could aid in efficient fish handling (especially lings) which would be better for conservation of released fish. Keeping the fish in the net while measuring would be another way to securely measure.
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Good stuff and perspectives. Like Al’s day early story, John’s plan distress and Eric’s revelation-
“ Watching salmon migrate, spawn and die has been way more fulfilling than catching them, and that's saying a lot.
I'm getting old. Stay off my lawn!”
:smt044 :smt044 :smt044
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What year was that Al, ur 4th place finisher? Thats awesome, but hope you shares some fillets!
It would also be cool to relax penalties for CnR fish, as keeping mouths closed or getting nice pictures could be tough w a 40+" breeder ling that you don't necessarily want to harvest or some flapping trout gasping for water.
Would be cool to think of a way to get a rough measurement but I understand that it would be tough. Maybe a quick paddle length or fishing pole next to it and then go home and submit a picture with measuring tape next to it for judges to determine?
Its a tough problem for a fish length competition but I agree with Eric that it would be sporting and considerate to these species.
Agree on this for lings. I'm pretty much all C & R, but especially for big fish. I freaking hate doing the live measure with lings. Not fun. Also, I've measured with and without lip grippers in the side of the mouth for lings and it's basically the same size. You keep them under control (a bit) and don't add extra length. I still like the mouth closed rule for aoty species as it makes everyone's measurements consistent. You can add an 1" plus to a large mouth bass with open mouth. Lip grippers for lings, I'd be in on that. And for true toad lings, as PS mentioned, may be a rough paddle measure might be better than killing it for a measurement? In the end their only a 5 PPI fish, so not a huge benefit if slightly off?
With a GoPro video cam on your head, you put the fish on the measuring board quickly and then release. Then submit a still shot.