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2017 AOTY/DOTY Entry

Topic: Preaching the PFD message ...  (Read 2688 times)

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polepole

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Bouché wrote:
Quote
Uh, guys.....I gave the details two days ago?

Yes, but I thought we could get if direct from Polepole - his frame of mind and rationale.

The times that come to mind involved very uncomfortable, warmer than normal air temperatures.  The thought process went like this.  Water conditions?  Glassy.  Water temps?  80+ degrees.  Air temps?  100+ degrees.  Shore or safety boat?  Within comfortable swimming distance.  And oh, I had already actively been swimming without a PFD.  That was actually the "enlightening moment", when I realized I had already made that choice, so why continue to suffer topside on the kayak ...

I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.

-Allen
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BigJim

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I was glad I was wearing mine last week when trying to net a HOT salmon from a wet swim step in decent sized swell...

When I go diving I usually don't wear one when paddling out...

 :smt006

Sincerely,

Jim

~GS 4  2010-1st~DOTY 2012-5th~DOTY 2013-1st~DOTY 2014-5th~T2B2 2015-1st~DOTY 2015-4th~DOTY 2016-7th~


traildad

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Bouché wrote:
Quote
Uh, guys.....I gave the details two days ago?

Yes, but I thought we could get if direct from Polepole - his frame of mind and rationale.

The times that come to mind involved very uncomfortable, warmer than normal air temperatures.  The thought process went like this.  Water conditions?  Glassy.  Water temps?  80+ degrees.  Air temps?  100+ degrees.  Shore or safety boat?  Within comfortable swimming distance.  And oh, I had already actively been swimming without a PFD.  That was actually the "enlightening moment", when I realized I had already made that choice, so why continue to suffer topside on the kayak ...

I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.

-Allen

I think if we are only going to do the safest thing we would stay off the water all together. Once we decide to go we make calculations on how much risk is too much risk. Thoses calculations are different for everyone. Should it be considered an absolute rule to wear a pfd? I took my son out at Albion and he now has an absolute rule. Never kayak on the ocean. Is he wrong? Is the pfd rule right? There are gray areas, different conditions, different abilities. I always wear a pfd because I'm not a strong swimmer. I refuse to stay off the ocean because some clueless newbie might follow me and die. I am not responsible for others to the point of restricting what is safe enough for me to prevent possible harm to others.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=42846.msg470404#msg470404

The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope.  ~John Buchan


DG

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I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.

-Allen

The odds are on your side.  If you only go out on good water and weather days that sure reduces the risk but it doesn't remove it.  That's your decision so not really sure why you are feeling so strong about this topic.  In a situation like you mentioned you can control much of the situation but there are so many situations that one can not predict.  Like I mentioned earlier and was mentioned on another post some boaters don't like kayakers and some just don't pay attention enough to not hit a kayaker. 

Many divers spend hours in the water and don't feel like its necessary to have a life vest.  Because of the rolling in fog, close calls by boaters and near misses with whales I now bring my life vest on all trips.  I don't wear it all day because I am in the water much of the time but it's easily accessible in case it's needed for me or another diver. 

I am still not going to complain or make comments like its telling about others caring about me, my family or rescuers that may have to help or recover my body. 

You either posted the questions here to have a healthy discussion or you didn't.   At this point I am not really sure why this was posted. 

It truly sucks recovering dead bodies and informing family members of a lost one.  We do have numerous first responders on this site and don't see how being concerned for them or a deceased persons family is a bad thing.  It takes its toll on people and seeing something that was preventable just sucks.

As much time as I spend on or in the water I am convinced my odds of dying out there are going up with my age.  I tell my family I try to take safety seriously but accidents, medical emergencies and unpredictable things can happen.  But I also say they can happen on land so let me enjoy the ocean while I still can. 

-----------------------------------
DG = 1st name Duane / last name starts with G.  Not very creative, but InsaneDuane was already taken.


crash

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Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD? 


Not at all.  I find it strange that you thought it was important to the conversation but didn't volunteer the information forthwith.  You are knowledgeable on the matters of things kayak angling, and if you thought it was important you should have included it in post one. If you didn't think it was important enough to the discussion to include it, I don't think it is important to ask it.  I'm not going to depose you to try to figure out what it is you are trying to say. 


polepole

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I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.

-Allen

The odds are on your side.  If you only go out on good water and weather days that sure reduces the risk but it doesn't remove it.  That's your decision so not really sure why you are feeling so strong about this topic.

I'm trying to figure out why I feel strongly about this as well.  But it mostly keeps coming back to the close minded and disrespectful responses that are becoming all too common place.


In a situation like you mentioned you can control much of the situation but there are so many situations that one can not predict.  Like I mentioned earlier and was mentioned on another post some boaters don't like kayakers and some just don't pay attention enough to not hit a kayaker. 

But the kayaker has control over the part where they should always be aware of their surrounding and approaching boats.  Unless a boat is specifically targeting me, I'm pretty sure I know where they are around me at all times and will get myself out of the way if needed.


Many divers spend hours in the water and don't feel like its necessary to have a life vest.  Because of the rolling in fog, close calls by boaters and near misses with whales I now bring my life vest on all trips.  I don't wear it all day because I am in the water much of the time but it's easily accessible in case it's needed for me or another diver. 

I am still not going to complain or make comments like its telling about others caring about me, my family or rescuers that may have to help or recover my body. 

You either posted the questions here to have a healthy discussion or you didn't.   At this point I am not really sure why this was posted. 

The telling part for me, is that from what I see here, many aren't willing to have a healthy discussion.

It truly sucks recovering dead bodies and informing family members of a lost one.  We do have numerous first responders on this site and don't see how being concerned for them or a deceased persons family is a bad thing.  It takes its toll on people and seeing something that was preventable just sucks.

As much time as I spend on or in the water I am convinced my odds of dying out there are going up with my age.  I tell my family I try to take safety seriously but accidents, medical emergencies and unpredictable things can happen.  But I also say they can happen on land so let me enjoy the ocean while I still can.

No arguments from me here.  However, my first priority is to not place myself in a situation that requires responders.  Presuming that responders will get involved and taking the discussion from there just seems ass backwards to me.  While good to keep in mind, it shouldn't drive the discussion IMO.   Honestly, it is not even something I expected to come up in the course of this discussion, so it kind of catches me off guard.  I'll have to think about this some more ...

-Allen
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polepole

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Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD? 


Not at all.  I find it strange that you thought it was important to the conversation but didn't volunteer the information forthwith.  You are knowledgeable on the matters of things kayak angling, and if you thought it was important you should have included it in post one. If you didn't think it was important enough to the discussion to include it, I don't think it is important to ask it.  I'm not going to depose you to try to figure out what it is you are trying to say.

Having a discussion does not mean I have to start by typing a book.

And I am making a point here, and framed my introduction along those lines.  It didn't take 1 page of responses before "stupidity" was used in the discussion.  And again, without full knowledge of the circumstances.  This is the part that bugs me the most, the way the safety cops come out, preach and pass judgement, without full knowledge of specific situations.

So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject?  You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...

-Allen
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 11:37:57 AM by polepole »
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DG

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No arguments from me here.  However, my first priority is to not place myself in a situation that requires responders.  Presuming that responders will get involved and taking the discussion from there just seems ass backwards to me.  While good to keep in mind, it shouldn't drive the discussion IMO.   Honestly, it is not even something I expected to come up in the course of this discussion, so it kind of catches me off guard.  I'll have to think about this some more ...

Well after all was said I guess it's good to at least keep the discussion going.  Not trying to change ones mind, but putting out ones personal experiences sure makes things real.  Even you found something that was talked about that wasn't on your radar and others may also see new points.  I have no clue if that will actually change your mind nor do I think that's the point you should focus on. 

Just think about the ones who are looking to try this for the first time and they come to NCKA.  When I moved to the coast I didn't know anyone kayaking and found NCKA.  I read about capsizing, shark attacks, and hypothermia.  Never really understood how dangerous it could be.  I spent months in the river practicing because of what I had learned.  Glad I did. 

Even if something doesn't affect you it may help someone else prepare better and teach the next generation how important safety is. 

I have a different outlook on things and will not say I am not going to help someone who doesn't wear a PFD.  I am not even going to refuse to fish with someone who refuses to wear one.  For some reason if I see someone who needs help I will evaluate each situation and do what I can to help even if it ends up with only calling the coast guard.  It must have been the Marine Corps drilling in that you don't leave anyone behind.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 11:49:46 AM by DG »
-----------------------------------
DG = 1st name Duane / last name starts with G.  Not very creative, but InsaneDuane was already taken.


crash

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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject?  You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...


So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop?  Congrats I guess.  Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point.  Yay.

I think asking the question and entertaining the idea that there are circumstances that people should not wear PFDs is irresponsible.  Just like what I said about vaccines on your FB page.  I view pfds and vaccines as sufficiently similar that I think that, while not exact, they are apt for comparison.  On the other hand, setting a free solo climbing record for elite climbers has very little to do with the vast majority of everyday climbers who have no business climbing unprotected on a single pitch let alone dream about doing what Alex did on El Cap. 

pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to.  In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor.  In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance.  But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one.  Wear your pfd.  Vaccinate your kids.  The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.

I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.

If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone.  But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.

That's what I think.


traildad

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I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.

-Allen

The odds are on your side.  If you only go out on good water and weather days that sure reduces the risk but it doesn't remove it.  That's your decision so not really sure why you are feeling so strong about this topic.

I'm trying to figure out why I feel strongly about this as well.  But it mostly keeps coming back to the close minded and disrespectful responses that are becoming all too common place.


In a situation like you mentioned you can control much of the situation but there are so many situations that one can not predict.  Like I mentioned earlier and was mentioned on another post some boaters don't like kayakers and some just don't pay attention enough to not hit a kayaker. 

But the kayaker has control over the part where they should always be aware of their surrounding and approaching boats.  Unless a boat is specifically targeting me, I'm pretty sure I know where they are around me at all times and will get myself out of the way if needed.


Many divers spend hours in the water and don't feel like its necessary to have a life vest.  Because of the rolling in fog, close calls by boaters and near misses with whales I now bring my life vest on all trips.  I don't wear it all day because I am in the water much of the time but it's easily accessible in case it's needed for me or another diver. 

I am still not going to complain or make comments like its telling about others caring about me, my family or rescuers that may have to help or recover my body. 

You either posted the questions here to have a healthy discussion or you didn't.   At this point I am not really sure why this was posted. 

The telling part for me, is that from what I see here, many aren't willing to have a healthy discussion.

It truly sucks recovering dead bodies and informing family members of a lost one.  We do have numerous first responders on this site and don't see how being concerned for them or a deceased persons family is a bad thing.  It takes its toll on people and seeing something that was preventable just sucks.

As much time as I spend on or in the water I am convinced my odds of dying out there are going up with my age.  I tell my family I try to take safety seriously but accidents, medical emergencies and unpredictable things can happen.  But I also say they can happen on land so let me enjoy the ocean while I still can.

No arguments from me here.  However, my first priority is to not place myself in a situation that requires responders.  Presuming that responders will get involved and taking the discussion from there just seems ass backwards to me.  While good to keep in mind, it shouldn't drive the discussion IMO.   Honestly, it is not even something I expected to come up in the course of this discussion, so it kind of catches me off guard.  I'll have to think about this some more ...

-Allen

That's just human nature when you break from the culture. Try having a healthy discussion about trolling motors or long standing regs or conventions. It usually doesn't go well. I think using the word "preaching" in your title says to me that you're not just talking about casual advice to wear a pfd.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=42846.msg470404#msg470404

The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope.  ~John Buchan


polepole

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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject?  You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...


So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop?  Congrats I guess.  Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point.  Yay.

Who is pissed off?  Please let me know.  Not my intention.

Nuke the re-entry training?  That is in the past.  I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.

pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to.  In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor.  In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance.  But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one.  Wear your pfd.  Vaccinate your kids.  The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.

I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.

If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone.  But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.

That's what I think.

Really?  That's not the thread I started?  Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly.  Or both.

I support the "wear your PFD mentality".  I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.

-Allen

Sponsored and Supported by: Ocean Kayak Pro Staff, Kokatat Ambassador, Big Hammer, Humminbird 
Owner: NorCalKayakAnglers.com, NorthWestKayakAnglers.com
Publisher: KayakFishingMagazine.net, TheMilkcrateMag.com
Admin: Aquahunters.com


crash

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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject?  You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...


So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop?  Congrats I guess.  Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point.  Yay.

Who is pissed off?  Please let me know.  Not my intention.

Nuke the re-entry training?  That is in the past.  I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.

pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to.  In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor.  In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance.  But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one.  Wear your pfd.  Vaccinate your kids.  The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.

I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.

If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone.  But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.

That's what I think.

Really?  That's not the thread I started?  Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly.  Or both.

I support the "wear your PFD mentality".  I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.

-Allen



Its hard to keep up with the several hundred replies between here and FB to remember but I distinctly recalling Craig using the words "stupid asshole".  He's always in a constant low level of being pissed off though so maybe he's not a fair example.  But still, that has been the tone across hundreds of posts if not a bit less blunt.

Maybe Ken is right about the use of the word "preaching".  There are different ways to preach and one way might be inoffensive and effective while others might chase the parishioners off elsewhere.  The word might mean different things to different people depending on life experiences and to some, like me, "preach" as a word carries no negative connotation whatsoever.

Maybe instead of talking about times that people don't really need to wear pfds to segue into a discussion about heavy handed nazi cop tactics, you could have just said hey, lets back off on the heavy handed nazi cop tactics because the message is lost on the listener and it turns out that such tactics are counterproductive. 



traildad

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When I see the word preaching that way I think someone offering unsolicited and unwelcomed advice in an unpleasant manner. Usually someone is offering advice on immoral behavior.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=42846.msg470404#msg470404

The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope.  ~John Buchan


ravensblack

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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject?  You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...


So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop?  Congrats I guess.  Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point.  Yay.

Who is pissed off?  Please let me know.  Not my intention.

Nuke the re-entry training?  That is in the past.  I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.

pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to.  In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor.  In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance.  But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one.  Wear your pfd.  Vaccinate your kids.  The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.

I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.

If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone.  But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.

That's what I think.

Really?  That's not the thread I started?  Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly.  Or both.

I support the "wear your PFD mentality".  I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.

-Allen



Its hard to keep up with the several hundred replies between here and FB to remember but I distinctly recalling Craig using the words "stupid asshole".  He's always in a constant low level of being pissed off though so maybe he's not a fair example.  But still, that has been the tone across hundreds of posts if not a bit less blunt.

Maybe Ken is right about the use of the word "preaching".  There are different ways to preach and one way might be inoffensive and effective while others might chase the parishioners off elsewhere.  The word might mean different things to different people depending on life experiences and to some, like me, "preach" as a word carries no negative connotation whatsoever.

Maybe instead of talking about times that people don't really need to wear pfds to segue into a discussion about heavy handed nazi cop tactics, you could have just said hey, lets back off on the heavy handed nazi cop tactics because the message is lost on the listener and it turns out that such tactics are counterproductive.


Thanks Doug. Love you too!!! I saw some more stupid assholes at Tomales yesterday while I was in a fantastic mood. Full of good cheer and enjoying a wonderful day on the water. Lol
"I always entertain great hope" Robert Frost


crash

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anything