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2017 AOTY/DOTY Entry

Topic: Preaching the PFD message ...  (Read 2499 times)

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Tsuri

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The world is not black and white, it is shades of grey.  And everyone's grey is not the same.


THIS!

This is something that until recently I thought I understood, now in midlife its really messing with me. :(

But back on topic:

I always wear a seat belt when driving, PFD when on a boat and wetsuit when in cold water. When I see someone in the bay with no wetsuit I want to try and tell them what I think they should do but typically figure it's not really my job to try and educate them.


On the other hand often in the past I fished the ocean alone and relied on fear to let me know my limit. These days with a kid I go out alone alot less and only in "safer conditions"  also when things freak me out I head in.

I think when people have less to lose they are willing to take more risks and the adrenalin helps them feel more alive (enjoy their life) and perhaps adjust their actions to reduce risk. When they have more to lose they are often more careful.

The telling people to wear their PDF thing is similar to telling them there are sharks in the ocean, they probably already know and you are likely to make them uncomfortable by reminding them (especially if you say it like you care). How you say it really will effect how they will respond.


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Archie Marx

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It's a responsibility to wear a PFD when applicable with your intended recreational activity. For the following reasons:

1. Out of a concern and respect for your fellow paddler/rescuer. Drowning people are scary as fuck to rescue especially if they aren't wearing a PFD and panicked.

2. You are probably not as smart as you think you are. Granted, there are some truly knowledgeable watermen on these boards who can make highly reliable risk assessments, but you are probably not that guy. I know I'm not. If you complain to kokatat that the denim and cotton tee that you wear under your dry suit is getting damp, then you are most definitely not tha guy. But hey, that's ok, just wear your pfd and you just might survive your own stupidity (I'm including myself in this too)The effects of unanticipated cold water immersion are too abstract for people who have not experienced it.

3. This is NCKA. Water is cold here.

4. You are most likely a role model...... Whether you like it or not.

If you are a leader in the kayak fishing community I believe that you have further obligations to your fellow kayak enthusiasts.

5. You are a driver of kayaking and fishing culture.  Some individuals refuse to wear PFD's for asinine reasons,  namely that it is somehow emasculating/non-macho/only for neophytes. As a driver of culture you can change these misconceptions.


Do I want a PFD law? F&$k no! As polepole said thee is a grey area, and I suspect a PFD law would draw an arbitrary line. So, I am making the case that social pressure isn't such a bad way to go about it.

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Tinker

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I was a rescue swimmer in the Coast Guard.  Full disclosure: I was a member of a  team of seven based in San Francisco who were the prototype for what are now Rescue Swimmers.

Even with a great deal of water experience and a fitness regime that makes me want to take a nap just remembering it, and although there was always a helicopter hovering above us or a rescue boat within a few yards, we wore CO2-inflatable life vests at all times and never questioned the need for them, then - and I don't question the need for them now.  The unexpected happens.

I'm not sure I get the point of this conversation, Allen.  I'd suggest that if it feels wrong for someone to say, "You must always wear a PFD" it's no more wrong than someone saying, "Wear a PFD when you feel like it".  Advice is advice, no matter what the message may be.

I'm interested in a description of a situation in which you feel safer without wearing a PFD than you would if wearing one.

I have no data to suggest the odds of drowning would change if all forms of kayaking had been included, but the statistics you quoted about kayak deaths look similar to a report based on a selected set of circumstances that represent a teeny-tiny subset of all kayaking, yet it appears that small number of deaths was used to calculate a person's odds based on all kayakers.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 03:51:57 AM by Tinker »
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dtizz

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All great points, Archie.

If I'm on the water, I'm wearing a PFD. Sure my risk exposure would be different for a swift moving river vs. solo fishing on the Sonoma coast vs. summer fishing on the Cosumnes where I might be able to stand up if I rolled over, but if I'm on the water, I'm wearing a PFD.

I think the only message going out should be "on the water, wear a PFD."
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 07:59:17 AM by dtizz »


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I think that I agree with Allen, in that there has been a bit much finger pointing and preaching of PFD's recently, like at GS when people were calling out to some kayakers on the radio without PFD's on, only to find out that they were seasoned divers who were in no danger at all.  I totally agree that you shouldn't preach to someone that knows what they are doing, knows their limits, and is properly outfitted for conditions, and has weighed the risks.

But I also have to agree that it's important to preach safety on the site, because you never know whom we might be inspiring to join this sport by way of all of our awesome reports, hookups, and tournaments. 

When new guys jump on the site and say "I found a kayak at a garage sale, picked up a cheap pole and hit the water" only to see in their pics they are wearing jeans, t-shirt, no pfd, no vhf, no pump, and dont even have a single piece of safety gear on them.

How sad would it be if you found out someone emulated us and then died doing so?  Luckily this hasn't happened at any of our hookups or whatever.  But there are plenty of reports of people helping others on the water that were woefully under equipped for the conditions, or their own abilities.  And there are too many reports of people drowning and not having a PFD on them as well. 

So I might just tell someone what I think is safe or not safe.  Still it's their choice.  I'm not the police. But I'd still like to believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.



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Adam, you seem to want to keep making this about me, which is fine.  I can see why, and I will respond.

But really, I'd like more focus on the insensitive safety cops ...

It's a responsibility to wear a PFD when applicable with your intended recreational activity. For the following reasons:

1. Out of a concern and respect for your fellow paddler/rescuer. Drowning people are scary as fuck to rescue especially if they aren't wearing a PFD and panicked.

My fellow paddlers are not at the top of my list.  Sorry for how that sounds.  I do care about them.  But I focus more on making sure I can take care of myself.

2. You are probably not as smart as you think you are. Granted, there are some truly knowledgeable watermen on these boards who can make highly reliable risk assessments, but you are probably not that guy. I know I'm not. If you complain to kokatat that the denim and cotton tee that you wear under your dry suit is getting damp, then you are most definitely not tha guy. But hey, that's ok, just wear your pfd and you just might survive your own stupidity (I'm including myself in this too)The effects of unanticipated cold water immersion are too abstract for people who have not experienced it.

I'm smart enough to know that if I'm in some inland waterway with 85+ degree calm water, 85+ degree air temp, no wind in the forecast, and I stay within 100 yards of shore, that the risk of me drowning without a PFD on is LESS THAN if I were a mile offshore of the Sonoma Coast in 25 knot winds.


3. This is NCKA. Water is cold here.

Not everywhere.

4. You are most likely a role model...... Whether you like it or not.

If you are a leader in the kayak fishing community I believe that you have further obligations to your fellow kayak enthusiasts.

There are different ways to being a role model.  I'd like to make sure people are more educated and understand the tradeoffs vs. just blindly following rules that they may or may not completely comprehend.  That isn't to say there isn't a place for blindly following the rules.  It doesn't have to be either/or.  There is a time and place for different things.

5. You are a driver of kayaking and fishing culture.  Some individuals refuse to wear PFD's for asinine reasons,  namely that it is somehow emasculating/non-macho/only for neophytes. As a driver of culture you can change these misconceptions.

I'd love to change the culture to being less abrasive and combative when it comes to safety.

Do I want a PFD law? F&$k no! As polepole said thee is a grey area, and I suspect a PFD law would draw an arbitrary line. So, I am making the case that social pressure isn't such a bad way to go about it.

Social pressure doesn't have to be being mean to people.

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polepole

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I'm not sure I get the point of this conversation, Allen.  I'd suggest that if it feels wrong for someone to say, "You must always wear a PFD" it's no more wrong than someone saying, "Wear a PFD when you feel like it".  Advice is advice, no matter what the message may be.

It's all in the delivery of said "advice" ...

I'm interested in a description of a situation in which you feel safer without wearing a PFD than you would if wearing one.

I never said it was safer.  What I'm trying to say is that there are situations that fall below the acceptable risk level that I have set for myself.

I have no data to suggest the odds of drowning would change if all forms of kayaking had been included, but the statistics you quoted about kayak deaths look similar to a report based on a selected set of circumstances that represent a teeny-tiny subset of all kayaking, yet it appears that small number of deaths was used to calculate a person's odds based on all kayakers.

The kayak stats came via rockfish from ACA I believe.  I do not believe they are a teeny-tiny subset.  Do you have "better" stats?

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Archie Marx

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I'm not making it about you, and I wonder where you get that idea.

Cool, you have convinced me. I will not say another word about PFDs on your forum nor will I ever post a self rescue hook up on NCKA again.

If you don't like safety culture, then you can change it. (And yes this post is directed at you.)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 10:45:15 AM by Archie Marx »
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What is your point polepole? 

Is it the message itself that bothers you?  The tone?

What was the triggering event for this post that you knew would be divisive and why are you taking a contrarian stance without making it crystal clear exactly what it is you are advocating?  Because it seems like you are talking about two distinct things and using the arguments interchangeably in your posts, and the arguments for message vs tone are not interchangeable, hence my sophistry comment.

What's up?



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I'm not making it about you, and I wonder where you get that idea.

Cool, you have convinced me. I will not say another word about PFDs on your forum nor will I ever post a self rescue hook up on NCKA again.

Adam, you're completely missing the point.  The problem I have is not the message being sent, it is HOW it often times gets sent.  I can't think of a time that you are guilty of this.  And I support your means of getting the message across.

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polepole

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What is your point polepole? 

Is it the message itself that bothers you?  The tone?

What was the triggering event for this post that you knew would be divisive and why are you taking a contrarian stance without making it crystal clear exactly what it is you are advocating?  Because it seems like you are talking about two distinct things and using the arguments interchangeably in your posts, and the arguments for message vs tone are not interchangeable, hence my sophistry comment.

What's up?

Sorry if I'm having a hard time getting my point across.  If Doug can't tease it out, I must be an idiot.   :smt006

No singular trigger event.  It's been building over time.

What contrarian stance am I taking?  That you don't have to wear your PFD 100% of the time?  I can see how some might take offense to that in itself.

What am I advocating?  That people in general better understand the risks, and become capable to make decisions on their own.  And that more experienced kayaks have the patience to teach with respect.  That the world is not black and white.

What 2 distinct things do you see me discussing and what arguments being used interchangeably?

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So getting back to the preaching ...A few years ago a few members of JW's were going through the hood on a regular basis . After several agitated VK responses , they were still persistent in their outreach .

One afternoon , the doorbell rang and it was them . I stopped the man and told him that I appreciate his concern for my spiritual well-being but did not believe in organized religions and am happy with my own personal journey .

They to my knowledge have not returned nor are there pamphlets left on our door step , even after seeing the crew canvassing the neighborhood .
 
Honey instead of vinegar . The delivery .

Maybe the thread Safety First should be rewritten and an asterisk added with a disclaimer

 * NCKA neither encourages nor discourages the use of PFD since it's a personal choice . Kayaking can be dangerous and could cause serious bodily harm up to and including death .

I don't have the intellectual capacity and my mental health issues w/ my PTSD make it hard to maintain focus in/for a debate. Hell most of my posts are ignored  as anyway lol .

Crap IDK where this is even going ..Fwiw just my .02



Archie Marx

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I'm not making it about you, and I wonder where you get that idea.

Cool, you have convinced me. I will not say another word about PFDs on your forum nor will I ever post a self rescue hook up on NCKA again.

Adam, you're completely missing the point.  The problem I have is not the message being sent, it is HOW it often times gets sent.  I can't think of a time that you are guilty of this.  And I support your means of getting the message across.

-Allen

Oh don't get me wrong, I'll still ty to promote safety through self rescue practices and always wearing my pfd. I just will no longer do it on your website.
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So getting back to the preaching ...A few years ago a few members of JW's were going through the hood on a regular basis . After several agitated VK responses , they were still persistent in their outreach .

One afternoon , the doorbell rang and it was them . I stopped the man and told him that I appreciate his concern for my spiritual well-being but did not believe in organized religions and am happy with my own personal journey .

They to my knowledge have not returned nor are there pamphlets left on our door step , even after seeing the crew canvassing the neighborhood .
 
Honey instead of vinegar . The delivery .

Maybe the thread Safety First should be rewritten and an asterisk added with a disclaimer

 * NCKA neither encourages nor discourages the use of PFD since it's a personal choice . Kayaking can be dangerous and could cause serious bodily harm up to and including death .

I don't have the intellectual capacity and my mental health issues w/ my PTSD make it hard to maintain focus in/for a debate. Hell most of my posts are ignored  as anyway lol .

Crap IDK where this is even going ..Fwiw just my .02

Did you say something Vic?   :smt004

BTW, NCKA encourages the use of PFD's.  Confused yet?

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