Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 14, 2017, 02:56:54 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent Topics

[Today at 02:39:14 PM]

[Today at 02:23:19 PM]

[Today at 02:15:05 PM]

by Lir
[Today at 02:11:37 PM]

[Today at 01:22:06 PM]

[Today at 01:15:48 PM]

[Today at 01:02:38 PM]

[Today at 12:25:31 PM]

[Today at 11:57:37 AM]

[Today at 11:37:11 AM]

[Today at 11:35:16 AM]

[Today at 11:00:55 AM]

[Today at 10:56:03 AM]

[Today at 10:39:28 AM]

[Today at 10:38:33 AM]

[Today at 10:04:33 AM]

[Today at 09:49:14 AM]

[Today at 09:23:05 AM]

[Today at 09:20:25 AM]

[Today at 09:17:17 AM]

[Today at 08:54:19 AM]

by bmb
[Today at 07:43:35 AM]

[Today at 01:34:45 AM]

[Today at 12:45:14 AM]

[December 13, 2017, 09:57:31 PM]

[December 13, 2017, 09:45:22 PM]

[December 13, 2017, 06:41:43 PM]

[December 13, 2017, 06:27:33 PM]

by Tote
[December 13, 2017, 05:25:53 PM]

by SOMA
[December 13, 2017, 04:02:33 PM]

Support NCKA

Support the site by making a donation.

2017 AOTY/DOTY Entry

Topic: Native titan propel VS hobie PA. ???  (Read 752 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AlsHobieOutback

  • Proud Member of Team A-HULLS
  • Sea Lion
  • ****
  • "I love it when a plan comes together!"
  • View Profile
  • Location: "In the Redwoods!" AKA: Boulder Creek, CA
  • Date Registered: Apr 2007
  • Posts: 9783
^^ what's your opinion on comparing a hobie revo 13 180 vs manta ray 12 propel?
Which one would be better against swell?
Hard to say for sure, but in general longer and skinnier will cut through swell better than shorter and fatter.  Depends on other factors as well though. 


bmb

  • Also, no, I don't know computer stuff other than how to be a dick online.
  • AOTY Committee
  • *
  • View Profile
  • Location: Livermoron
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 6444
^^ what's your opinion on comparing a hobie revo 13 180 vs manta ray 12 propel?
Which one would be better against swell?
They're both good upswell.  The Hobies do a little better in a following sea, but if you're patient and take it slow in a following sea you'll be fine.   

Sorry for the threadjack but to reply-

Differences (besides the reverse system, which is implied):
1. The MR has two geartracks included for rigging, the Revo does not.
2. The Revo's transducer scupper is protected by a cover, the MR's is not.  That's a good thing and a bad thing, as the good is it protects your transducer casing, but the bad being that sand can occasionally get stuck underneath it, especially if you do beach launches.  Its just two different ways of skinning a cat.
3. MR's rear rocket launchers are more useful than the Hobie molded in ones, which honestly suck.
4. Revo has a larger tankwell than the MR, so if you want to carry a lot of stuff back there it can matter.
5. The Revo sits a bit lower COG so it will feel more stable, but the MR is plenty stable. 
6. The Revo's seat is a little lower, and some have complained about water in the seatwell splashing up.  I do not have that problem in the MR since its raised higher.
7. Revo is probably slightly faster pedaling, but I've not really tried to race them over any sort of distance.  Short bursts are definitely faster but longer distance I think they'd be pretty close.
8. MR is a better paddling boat - it cuts through waves (sort of crashes through them)
9. Revo's seat might have a little more cushioning, but isn't as wide as the MR, so its sort of a wash from a comfort standpoint.  Revo is better for skinny butts.
10. MR is significantly cheaper.  You can get one for less than $2000 new with warranty, and sometimes cheaper from the right dealer.  A Revo 13 you'd be probably $2200 or so if you're good at dealing for a new one. MR doesn't come with a paddle included but I have my own and rarely use it.
11. MR is a wetter boat and doesn't handle weight as well.  More water in the cockpit but it drains well due to its huge scuppers.  I generally have about 1-2" of water in my front two scuppers throughout all trips. I don't mind the wetter boat as long as my butt stays dry.
12. MR hatches seal better, less water in hull.  Makes it more difficult to access on the water than the Revo though.
13. Revo can run in shallower water.
14. Archie says he likes my front carry handles better than the Revo, which is right since we have front and back carry handles while the Revo just has the little strap handle thing. Side handles are similar.
15. Revo's rudder can retract with the twist n stow, the MR's cannot as it is integrated into the hull.  The MR's rudder is plastic and looks flimsy, but it can take a beating.  I beat the heck out of mine.
16. Both kayaks track pretty well and have decent rudders.  The MR is not a great turning boat but its more geared towards tracking.  It turns well enough for me.
17. MR's seat attachment and seat adjustment can be difficult, as our hulls will shrink and expand in the heat and cold.  So it can be difficult to attach the seat to the track sometimes.  That's not an issue with the Hobies at all as they don't need to attach on rails for a sliding adjustment. 
18. The mirage drive is safer in the surf zone.  Our drives are metal, extremely tough and well constructed, and could beat the crap out of you if you get turtled in the surf zone.  The mirage drive can be stowed easier and is less likely to hurt you.  If you plan to do a lot of difficult surf launches, that should be a very serious consideration.

Best way is to try them both out - I'm always happy to let people try mine or even borrow it if I'm not gonna use it for a bit.  Will be easier once I get my new boat.

But the MR truly the best pedal kayak under $2000.  There's only one other one under $2000 and I think the MR12 is significantly better than that one from a fit and finish and day to day fishing use standpoint.  Of course you can find a used Revo 13 for under $2k these days also.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 10:22:06 PM by bmb »


Archie Marx

  • AOTY Committee
  • *
  • Hobie Revo 13 & 16
  • View Profile kayakcity.com
  • Location: Citrus Heights
  • Date Registered: Dec 2008
  • Posts: 4978
You fish solo?

Both of those kayaks are behemoths, so if you plan to fish solo make sure you have an idea as to how you will load and unload your kayak.

Im a big fan of lighter kayaks simply because they are easy to throw on the racks.
1st - 2013 Angler of the Year- All time high score
1st - 2016 Angler of the Year
1st - 2016 CCKF AOTY - All time high score


bmb

  • Also, no, I don't know computer stuff other than how to be a dick online.
  • AOTY Committee
  • *
  • View Profile
  • Location: Livermoron
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 6444
Try to think ahead to when you're bored with the easy access fresh water spots you're fishing now and you're spending more time exploring new and interesting launches.

My recommendation would be to try a Hobie Outback first. You might like it. In my humble opinion, it's a much more versatile yak than the PA or Titan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And in my humble opinion, a Slayer Propel 13 is a more versatile yak than an Outback as its much easier to stand and fish in than an OB, and can do everything the OB can do. Unlike you, I've actually fished in both, and have test driven every pedal kayak model out there (except for the PDL and Pilot, only due to lack of opportunity) as I think its more important to know than to just spread my opinion blindly.  But I'm not a salesman so I'm not here to try and talk someone out of something they want.  I just provide unbiased info and direct them towards the best resource they could have, an honest kayak shop.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 10:14:16 PM by bmb »


jrsuperman

  • Sand Dab
  • **
  • View Profile
  • Location: Sac
  • Date Registered: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 77
Thanks for that detailed reply. Glad I asked. I've searched the internet for a week for comparisons but not much out there.. if only you lived closer I would take your offer to try the MR. it's a feature rich kayak for sure and light(test lifted one at Adventure sports kayak in Sacramento). I have tried the Revolution 13 and I have the 11 and they pretty much can easily pushed by wind maybe even the current when I tried them at big break marina(they are not super friendly paddling too hard to track straight). I wish they would make adjustments and make the stern less round like adventure 16 I got..
Anyone know a material that can be molded and durable to make a skeg out of for the 11?


As for the Titans vs PA In my opinion, kayak fishing is to eliminate the boat trailer idea and being able to easily carry on our daily cars. But I'm sure in the ocean they will be less likely be attacked by GW.


bmb

  • Also, no, I don't know computer stuff other than how to be a dick online.
  • AOTY Committee
  • *
  • View Profile
  • Location: Livermoron
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 6444
Thanks for that detailed reply. Glad I asked. I've searched the internet for a week for comparisons but not much out there.. if only you lived closer I would take your offer to try the MR. it's a feature rich kayak for sure and light(test lifted one at Adventure sports kayak in Sacramento). I have tried the Revolution 13 and I have the 11 and they pretty much can easily pushed by wind maybe even the current when I tried them at big break marina(they are not super friendly paddling too hard to track straight). I wish they would make adjustments and make the stern less round like adventure 16 I got..
Anyone know a material that can be molded and durable to make a skeg out of for the 11?


As for the Titans vs PA In my opinion, kayak fishing is to eliminate the boat trailer idea and being able to easily carry on our daily cars. But I'm sure in the ocean they will be less likely be attacked by GW.
I'd try to get a side by side if you can.  Tell Adventure you want to do a test ride of the Manta Ray 12 Propel at Big Break and it might convince them to put one
there for demo.  They're so cheap for dealers I can't imagine they would balk at getting a demo or rental boat out there.  Those types of requests are always better from customers, as every Dick and Harry pro staff member of course wants their kayaks available for demo.

Of course, they could also tell you to shove it but they really like selling kayaks.

It's true that the Revos don't track well, and it is due to the rounded hull design they have.  They don't have a strong keel so they are a bit squirrelly paddling.  But the issue is muted under pedal power and you just get used to the constant micro-adjustments of the rudder handle.  The MR tracks significantly better but with the drive pulled water can slosh around in the drivewell, and we don't have a drivewell plug like the Hobies do.  The MR12 paddles better than the Revo 13, 11 and OB does, but it's not like its a Stealth or anything.  It doesn't have a lot of glide due to the drivewell sloshing, but once you get it moving it can really hold its own.  I have the videos up on my youtube page talking about it, and another one on my facebook page talking about the performance of the MR12 in the wind.

I'm like you, I cartop all my kayaks so I can't do the big beasts. But some people can and will so to each their own.

And also, I do go up to Sac town area to fish a lot since I'm non-local Sac crew.  If you really want to try it out sometime just let me know and we can arrange it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:13:20 PM by bmb »


Mojo Jojo

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Location: Garibaldi Oregon
  • Date Registered: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 835
Thanks for that detailed reply. Glad I asked. I've searched the internet for a week for comparisons but not much out there.. if only you lived closer I would take your offer to try the MR. it's a feature rich kayak for sure and light(test lifted one at Adventure sports kayak in Sacramento). I have tried the Revolution 13 and I have the 11 and they pretty much can easily pushed by wind maybe even the current when I tried them at big break marina(they are not super friendly paddling too hard to track straight). I wish they would make adjustments and make the stern less round like adventure 16 I got..
Anyone know a material that can be molded and durable to make a skeg out of for the 11?


As for the Titans vs PA In my opinion, kayak fishing is to eliminate the boat trailer idea and being able to easily carry on our daily cars. But I'm sure in the ocean they will be less likely be attacked by GW.
I'd try to get a side by side if you can.  Tell Adventure you want to do a test ride of the Manta Ray 12 Propel at Big Break and it might convince them to put one
there for demo.  They're so cheap for dealers I can't imagine they would balk at getting a demo or rental boat out there.  Those types of requests are always better from customers, as every Dick and Harry pro staff member of course wants their kayaks available for demo.

Of course, they could also tell you to shove it but they really like selling kayaks.

It's true that the Revos don't track well, and it is due to the rounded hull design they have.  They don't have a strong keel so they are a bit squirrelly paddling.  But the issue is muted under pedal power and you just get used to the constant micro-adjustments of the rudder handle.  The MR tracks significantly better but with the drive pulled water can slosh around in the drivewell, and we don't have a drivewell plug like the Hobies do.  The MR12 paddles better than the Revo 13, 11 and OB does, but it's not like its a Stealth or anything.  It doesn't have a lot of glide due to the drivewell sloshing, but once you get it moving it can really hold its own.  I have the videos up on my youtube page talking about it, and another one on my facebook page talking about the performance of the MR12 in the wind.

I'm like you, I cartop all my kayaks so I can't do the big beasts. But some people can and will so to each their own.

And also, I do go up to Sac town area to fish a lot since I'm non-local Sac crew.  If you really want to try it out sometime just let me know and we can arrange it.
Ya what this guy says, he's been in a boat or two and answered all my question when I was a "new-used" Propel owner.


2013 Jackson Big Tuna.........Ours
2011 Native Mariner Propel 12.5...His
2015 Native Slayer Propel 13.......Hers
20?? Emotion ,Sparky.....5 yr old grandson's
Event Coordinator
Heroes On the Water
North Oregon Coast Chapter
Team C.O.D. FISHING (Crazy Old Dudes)just for forum fun challenges


AlexB

  • Sea Lion
  • ****
  • View Profile
  • Location: Oakland, CA
  • Date Registered: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 4474
Try to think ahead to when you're bored with the easy access fresh water spots you're fishing now and you're spending more time exploring new and interesting launches.

My recommendation would be to try a Hobie Outback first. You might like it. In my humble opinion, it's a much more versatile yak than the PA or Titan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And in my humble opinion, a Slayer Propel 13 is a more versatile yak than an Outback as its much easier to stand and fish in than an OB, and can do everything the OB can do. Unlike you, I've actually fished in both, and have test driven every pedal kayak model out there (except for the PDL and Pilot, only due to lack of opportunity) as I think its more important to know than to just spread my opinion blindly.  But I'm not a salesman so I'm not here to try and talk someone out of something they want.  I just provide unbiased info and direct them towards the best resource they could have, an honest kayak shop.
You're right. I haven't tried the Native kayaks. I just might like the Slayer, too. Native propel kayaks were still fresh on the market when I bought my Outback, so I opted to give them a few more years to dial in their setup before giving them serious consideration. Seems like they are pretty dialed in now from what I'm hearing.

But.... What I said is that I think the Outback is a more versatile kayak than the PA (105 lbs) or the Titan (178 lbs?!?!?!?!?!?!?). For me, versatility starts first thing in the morning when I wake to go fishing. If I had a PA or a Titan, I would have to wake my fiancé up at 4:00 or 5:00 AM and convince her to crawl out of bed, get dressed, and help me load the kayak onto my car. Then I'd have to either coordinate with a buddy at the launch or hope I can flag down a friendly passer by to help unload. I guess the Titan probably requires a trailer, which both simplifies (loading/unloading) AND complicates things (parking...).


A lighter weight kayak (whether it's a Native or a Hobie) gives you the versatility to fish whenever you want (without having to wake up your S/O for help at o' dark thirty) and wherever you want (salt or fresh, wheeling or shouldering, up or down stairs, boulders, whatever).

Wheeleez beach carts are rated to handle up to 165 lbs. The Titan weighs 178 lbs. That means you either need to schlep it by hand (89 lbs per handle is still no joke), or you need a boat ramp. Or I guess you could get creative and find your own solution.

All I'm saying is I urge the original poster to give some SERIOUS thought to all the logistics you'll have to run through just to get one of those big kayaks to and from the water.

I'll amend my recommendation... I recommend ANY pedal kayak that weighs less than the Titan or PA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mojo Jojo

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Location: Garibaldi Oregon
  • Date Registered: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 835
Try to think ahead to when you're bored with the easy access fresh water spots you're fishing now and you're spending more time exploring new and interesting launches.

My recommendation would be to try a Hobie Outback first. You might like it. In my humble opinion, it's a much more versatile yak than the PA or Titan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And in my humble opinion, a Slayer Propel 13 is a more versatile yak than an Outback as its much easier to stand and fish in than an OB, and can do everything the OB can do. Unlike you, I've actually fished in both, and have test driven every pedal kayak model out there (except for the PDL and Pilot, only due to lack of opportunity) as I think its more important to know than to just spread my opinion blindly.  But I'm not a salesman so I'm not here to try and talk someone out of something they want.  I just provide unbiased info and direct them towards the best resource they could have, an honest kayak shop.
You're right. I haven't tried the Native kayaks. I just might like the Slayer, too. Native propel kayaks were still fresh on the market when I bought my Outback, so I opted to give them a few more years to dial in their setup before giving them serious consideration. Seems like they are pretty dialed in now from what I'm hearing.

But.... What I said is that I think the Outback is a more versatile kayak than the PA (105 lbs) or the Titan (178 lbs?!?!?!?!?!?!?). For me, versatility starts first thing in the morning when I wake to go fishing. If I had a PA or a Titan, I would have to wake my fiancé up at 4:00 or 5:00 AM and convince her to crawl out of bed, get dressed, and help me load the kayak onto my car. Then I'd have to either coordinate with a buddy at the launch or hope I can flag down a friendly passer by to help unload. I guess the Titan probably requires a trailer, which both simplifies (loading/unloading) AND complicates things (parking...).


A lighter weight kayak (whether it's a Native or a Hobie) gives you the versatility to fish whenever you want (without having to wake up your S/O for help at o' dark thirty) and wherever you want (salt or fresh, wheeling or shouldering, up or down stairs, boulders, whatever).

Wheeleez beach carts are rated to handle up to 165 lbs. The Titan weighs 178 lbs. That means you either need to schlep it by hand (89 lbs per handle is still no joke), or you need a boat ramp. Or I guess you could get creative and find your own solution.

All I'm saying is I urge the original poster to give some SERIOUS thought to all the logistics you'll have to run through just to get one of those big kayaks to and from the water.

I'll amend my recommendation... I recommend ANY pedal kayak that weighs less than the Titan or PA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wake up TLW at 0dark-thirty  :smt044  :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044 like that's going to happen without the lock being changed while your fishing.


2013 Jackson Big Tuna.........Ours
2011 Native Mariner Propel 12.5...His
2015 Native Slayer Propel 13.......Hers
20?? Emotion ,Sparky.....5 yr old grandson's
Event Coordinator
Heroes On the Water
North Oregon Coast Chapter
Team C.O.D. FISHING (Crazy Old Dudes)just for forum fun challenges


Ring King

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Location: Petaluma, CA
  • Date Registered: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 721
I don't car top my PA14s but I know many that do without the help of anyone else.  That Titan is a beast to handle on land.  I helped load Greg Blanchard's into his truck at the Camanche tournament.  It wouldn't be my choice without a trailer but Greg handles it all the time by himself.

Both the Titan and Pro Angler 14 are heavy cumbersome boats to maneuver out of the water but they both shine once you're in them and fishing!!  Both are extremely stable, will haul massive amounts of gear, and are amazing fishing platforms!! 

Try them both for yourself and make a decision based on your own experience!  I have owned three Pro Angler 14s and for me there is no other boat that I'd rather be in.  I fish salt and freshwater and I have never found any weather/current/tide that I didn't feel safe in.  My boats have fished the East Coast, West Coast, Gulf Coast and many places in between. 


NowhereMan

  • Sea Lion
  • ****
  • 44.5" and 38.55 pounds
  • View Profile YouTube Channel
  • Location: Los Gatos Mountains
  • Date Registered: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 4453
Or get an AI and you'll have every option discussed here (and then some) covered. Good used ones can be found for $2500 or so.

Of course, this is just my opinion and, no, I have never pedaled any kayak that doesn't use a mirage drive.
I'm an ordinary guy, 'cept I can fly
And sometimes I'm invisible


Tinker

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Location: Oregon
  • Date Registered: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 371
I went out with someone who owned a PA 14 and they told me, halfway through the trip, that they'd rolled it a couple of times (they'd only had it for a month) and couldn't put it right-side up unless they were standing firmly on the bottom.

It was the first and last time I went with them.

I haven't heard that righting a PA 14 is hard to do other than that day, and you might not have any trouble flipping it right-side up, but it's another thing to think about with big, heavy kayaks.
Wilderness Systems Tarpon 120
Ocean Kayak Trident 11 (2)
Ocean Kayak Trident 13


Malfunction

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Location: West Sacramento
  • Date Registered: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 406
I went out with someone who owned a PA 14 and they told me, halfway through the trip, that they'd rolled it a couple of times (they'd only had it for a month) and couldn't put it right-side up unless they were standing firmly on the bottom.

It was the first and last time I went with them.

I haven't heard that righting a PA 14 is hard to do other than that day, and you might not have any trouble flipping it right-side up, but it's another thing to think about with big, heavy kayaks.


How is flipping a PA even possible? I mean I get it in rough seas but anywhere else?

As for getting a PA rolled over its just a matter of technique. Personally I use a paracord leash I made that clips onto one of my rails


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Scurvy

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Location: Alameda
  • Date Registered: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 367
My recommendation would be to try a Hobie Outback first. You might like it. In my humble opinion, it's a much more versatile yak than the PA or Titan. 

+1

And if it's ultimate stability that you want, the sidekick amas could give you that.

Yes, this is a really good point because this add-on only costs $129, weighs next to nothing, can be fully removed or deployed on the water, and is truly stable.  In other words, they provide huge-boat stability without huge-boat cost and other penalties, and they deliver small-boat speed and maneuverability.

No, I would not do a beach entry or landing with these suckers deployed unless the surf was 18" or less.

As others have noted, the whole kayak concept is that "less is more," so the Titan at 178lbs really defeats that concept.  In fact, one could easily buy an aluminum skiff that weighs less WITH a small motor, has way more room, etc....  I am definitely a "less is more" kinda fisherman.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 12:47:36 PM by Scurvy »