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2018 AOTY/DOTY Entry

Topic: 2016/2017 New Native Boat Lineup and Rough Specs  (Read 2348 times)

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bmb

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Hi All,

Here's the anticipated specs and prices for the newest boats from Native, Hurricane and Liquidlogic from my distributor:

Hurricane Skimmer Propel 120 - 12'6", approx 56lbs without seat and drive, 31" wide.  MSRP $2600
Native Slayer Propel 12 LT - same kayak as above, with some included fishing features such as Native's Groove Track. maybe a pound heavier.  Expected MSRP $2800
LiquidLogic Manta Ray 12 Propel - approx 70lbs without seat and drive, 33", MSRP $2000
Native Manta Ray 12 Propel - same as above, but with included fishing features.  MSRP $2200
Native Titan 13.5 Propel - 150lbs fully rigged weight, 41" wide, MSRP $3300.  Same price as the PA14.

Weights are approximate as the boats haven't gone into full production yet and are all rough.

Also, don't forget about the:
Native Ultimate FX13 Propel - MSRP $2949 - 32.5" wide, 79lbs unrigged weightt.  http://nativewatercraft.com/product/ultimate-fx-propel-13/ 
This is a great flatwater boat - it is not scuppered so it's not for ocean or bay conditions.  But if you fish the lakes and rivers, you won't find a much more comfortable boat to fish out of.  Excellent speed and stability, lower seating position due to the hybrid hull.
Native Slayer Propel 13 - MSRP $2599 - 33" wide, 85lbs unrigged weight. the original of the V2 Propel kayaks - an excellent kayak and great to fish out of.  Maybe a little on the heavier side, but the speed is very good and the stability is excellent.   http://nativewatercraft.com/product/slayer-propel-13/
Native Slayer Propel 10 - MSRP $2399 - 34" wide, 59lbs unrigged weight.  Still my favorite kayak due to its light weight and stability. http://nativewatercraft.com/product/slayer-propel-10/

The Propel LTs and the Manta Ray 12 will be available in the fall. 
The Titan will be available in the spring as the mold hasn't been completed yet - should take about 5 months to create the mold and tool it up for production. 
I believe CCK in Rancho and Headwaters in Lodi will be carrying a few of the different models - please contact the stores for more details and to order your boats.

Let me know if you have any questions about the models or picking a new Native/LiquidLogic/Hurricane kayak. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 10:28:20 AM by bmb »


Action

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Thanks for the update....


oosickness

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So has Native made any improvements to there pedal system to make them more competitive? I'm curious to see what system will come out on top here to give Hobie a run for their money.



wormguy

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Yeah they have reverse.  Hobie doesn't yet..
Native Slayer Propel 13
Hobie Revolution 11


oosickness

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Yeah they have reverse.  Hobie doesn't yet..
The Native slayer propel has been out for years now with reverse, i was wondering if they have improved their gear ratios and propeller design.


charles

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Yeah they have reverse.  Hobie doesn't yet..
The Native slayer propel has been out for years now with reverse, i was wondering if they have improved their gear ratios and propeller design.
All human powered kayaks will use similar props and gear ratios to maximize the 1/2 horsepower a human can generate. A lower ratio gear will allow a bigger prop with more pitch and a smaller prop with less pitch will have a higher gear ratio but the efficiency will be close to the same among the several manufactures of prop drives.
Charles


bmb

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Yeah they have reverse.  Hobie doesn't yet..
The Native slayer propel has been out for years now with reverse, i was wondering if they have improved their gear ratios and propeller design.
there have been no changes.  they continue to be 10:1 gear ratios and the same propeller design and pitch.  They have continued to test both but have found no reason to make any changes.  Other manufacturers are trying different gear ratios from my understanding.  They will all do different things.

Native - 10:1
Old Town - 10.3:1 I believe, with a shorter crank arm so a tighter rotational circumference
Wilderness - 6:1
Feelfree - unsure, but I heard 20:1 and adjustable pitch
Jackson - 12:1 with adjustable pitch 3 bladed prop with a larger skeg. this does result in a larger recess in the hull to ensure the drive's operation though.

Based upon the above, the easiest to pedal would probably be Wildy, but it also means more pedaling overall for each turn of the prop.  As you can see, each manufacturer does something different, and there are multiple ways to skin a cat. As Charles says, the overall differences will probably be minimal. That's why to me, the most important thing isn't the gearing and pitch of the drive, but the design of the kayak attached to it and the overall build quality of the drive to ensure efficient and continued operation. Native has been essentially making the same drives with slight improvements over the past 5 or 6 years, and have had only a few hiccups.  That being said, they now have the most diverse pedal craft kayak lineup of any manufacturer with the exception of possibly Hobie. 

But they have built a boat for almost everyone now, except for a true offshore boat.  From my understanding, that is in consideration, but you have to remember that molds cost somewhere around $100,000 to be built, so they have to ensure that they have the financial resources and market demand to offset the cost of the mold, overhead and marginal costs of each new kayak model.  Offshore kayaks sound nice for us in CA, but the overall market for them is somewhat limited.  I do hope we will see an offshore model in the next 2-3 years with some design ideas that I've provided to them.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 06:51:24 AM by bmb »


bmb

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In addition, other manufacturers have found ways to improve their drives by having "zero draft" type positions and drive retrieval/storage methods.  Those features are good to have on paper, but do add increased complexity to the drive systems and could cause potential concerns in the future.  Native has made no changes to its drives to incorporate these types of things, but has continually tested these ideas as well. Their R&D has felt that the increased complexity would result in additional costs as well as potential for higher maintenance and reliability concerns. 

If you look at all of the pedal drives, the LEAST complicated ones are:  Native Propel Drive, Wilderness Pilot Drive (non actuating zero draft position retrieval) and the original Hobie Mirage Drive pedals.  Everything else has some sort of idea or gimmick that the manufacturer has brought in, but without long term testing who knows how they will shake out.  I generally don't like to purchase first generation mechanical anything and am happy to let others test these innovations until they have been proven.  Of course, us West coasters do fish a lot of generally rough saltwater conditions and are tough on our gear, probably worse than the majority of our country.  If I fished flatwater only, I wouldn't be as concerned.


bmb

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The one thing that I would love for us to get is a pedal drive showdown/demo day type of event where we can put all of the new kayaks through their paces.  But that would require the cooperation of the manufacturers and local dealers to get done, as no one dealer carries every pedal craft.  The most likely would be for CCK or Adventure Sports to host a new kayak showdown in conjunction with each other and possibly Headwaters at Lake Natoma.  But the only way that could happen is for us consumers to ask them to do it.  So if you do have interest in that idea, contact your dealers and ask them to get it set up.

Hobie - Adventure Sports and CCK
Feelfree - CCK & Headwaters, but of course Headwaters is the expert on them
Jackson - Adventure Sports and CCK
Native - CCK & Headwaters, with Headwaters having more experience with them
Old Town - Adventure Sports
Wildy - Adventure Sports & CCK

Of course this is a lot of inventory to take in at one time, so we don't know which shops plan to carry which pedal drive kayaks in inventory.  The wholesale costs of these kayaks is fairly high, and shops don't have the ability to just have every model as a demo for free.  That's why getting distributors to offer these types of events are important to us, as the market can dictate demand so the shops can make smarter purchasing decisions.

Final summary:
Support your local dealer and use them for any of your feasible purchases.  They'll be there for you when you want them and will be a lot easier to deal with than online retailers.  They can help you with modifications and repairs, and provide product support for you.  That's much more important than supporting any one kayak manufacturer.  That doesn't mean driving 100 miles to purchase a $10 part, but to think about them as you purchase and outfit your new kayak.  I personally stopped supporting my local dealer after poor experiences with them in the past, so now I'm primarily a supporter of CCK and Headwaters, regardless of which kayak models they carry.


Edit- sorry for my kayak unabomber manifesto here.


charles

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All good info. Prop drive for mass produced yaks is relatively recent so really finding out what will work best in practicality not just theory means putting in effort to test a number of prop/yak offerings. Tough to really test for the best performance from different prop units unless they can be tested in the same kayak. Too much difference between hulls and water performance. Weight, width, length, streamline, will determine speed and efficiency more than prop pitch or gear ratio between different manufactures.
Charles


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I have had excellent service from CCK.  JT in the Oakland office is amazing and repairing my Hobies. 


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In addition, other manufacturers have found ways to improve their drives by having "zero draft" type positions and drive retrieval/storage methods.  Those features are good to have on paper, but do add increased complexity to the drive systems and could cause potential concerns in the future.  Native has made no changes to its drives to incorporate these types of things, but has continually tested these ideas as well. Their R&D has felt that the increased complexity would result in additional costs as well as potential for higher maintenance and reliability concerns. 

If you look at all of the pedal drives, the LEAST complicated ones are:  Native Propel Drive, Wilderness Pilot Drive (non actuating zero draft position retrieval) and the original Hobie Mirage Drive pedals.  Everything else has some sort of idea or gimmick that the manufacturer has brought in, but without long term testing who knows how they will shake out.  I generally don't like to purchase first generation mechanical anything and am happy to let others test these innovations until they have been proven.  Of course, us West coasters do fish a lot of generally rough saltwater conditions and are tough on our gear, probably worse than the majority of our country.  If I fished flatwater only, I wouldn't be as concerned.

Native has made changes to their hulls though, with positive effects.  Early models had issues with cavitation.  Changes in the drive well addressed this to some extent.

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bmb

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In addition, other manufacturers have found ways to improve their drives by having "zero draft" type positions and drive retrieval/storage methods.  Those features are good to have on paper, but do add increased complexity to the drive systems and could cause potential concerns in the future.  Native has made no changes to its drives to incorporate these types of things, but has continually tested these ideas as well. Their R&D has felt that the increased complexity would result in additional costs as well as potential for higher maintenance and reliability concerns. 

If you look at all of the pedal drives, the LEAST complicated ones are:  Native Propel Drive, Wilderness Pilot Drive (non actuating zero draft position retrieval) and the original Hobie Mirage Drive pedals.  Everything else has some sort of idea or gimmick that the manufacturer has brought in, but without long term testing who knows how they will shake out.  I generally don't like to purchase first generation mechanical anything and am happy to let others test these innovations until they have been proven.  Of course, us West coasters do fish a lot of generally rough saltwater conditions and are tough on our gear, probably worse than the majority of our country.  If I fished flatwater only, I wouldn't be as concerned.

Native has made changes to their hulls though, with positive effects.  Early models had issues with cavitation.  Changes in the drive well addressed this to some extent.

-Allen
Yes that's absolutely correct.  All the "V2" kayaks from Native have channel/pontoon style hulls now.  They made these changes because they felt they have better water flow towards the drive.  Other manufacturers don't seem to have made the same hull shape, so who knows how it will work out in the long run.  That's why I wouldn't claim that the channel style hull is better than other styles - we just don't have enough data points on that yet.  It does provide generally better primary stability though in my opinion.


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Lots of good info. It almost sounds like you know what you're talking about... :-)
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Lots of good info. It almost sounds like you know what you're talking about... :-)

Yeah, if you can read through all that verbiage!

BTW, how much does that drive system weigh?   :smt002
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