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2017 AOTY/DOTY Entry

Topic: DOTY 2016 Rule Change Suggestion  (Read 1529 times)

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BigJim

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Jim, I don't think there are that many people who would opt out if they can only submit ten species instead of 18. I'd be willing to bet there are more guys, myself included, who are less excited to compete this year with the way the current rules stand.

With all due respect Pete (especially as a committee member this year) if you were unhappy with the way the comp was going why didn't you bring it up for discussion earlier?

I personally think it was inconsiderate and kinda shitty to bring up such drastic changes after the New Year, especially when myself and the other members of the committee are scrambling to get the 2016 sites up and running ASAP, and getting the awards ceremony planned, and all the plaques and prizes secured in time etc...

We have a private forum for this stuff but you have never once posted or participated over there...maybe you only have access under your other handle I dunno but I do know I sent texts and PMs to you and Charlie and nelson with links to threads and issues so you had plenty of opportunities to bring this stuff up.

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?action=profile;u=11079

Whatever, I should have just gone forward with making the new 2016 sites instead of asking two days ago if the rules looked ok and if you had any last minute changes....these weren't the kind of last minute changes I was expecting.

 :smt005

Sincerely,

Jim

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Formerdiver

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Here is my two cents:

I like the current setup for DOTY because it does push you to go out and learn/hunt every species.  DOTY was started and is setup as a species competition where if you want to win you are pushed to go out and hunt more species not just those you like to target.

I think a top 10 fish comp is great but it is not what DOTY was set out to be.  I think the top 10 for AOTY works because not every angler lives near the salt and being part of NCKA does not mean you have to kayak fish in the ocean whereas DOTY we are almost exclusively in the ocean minus some people doing stripers.  It is a commitment to fill all species and truly does show your knowledge of fish habitat and where they may be.

I know where a few species live but when I headed out to get a larger black rockfish on the 31st my question to Deke was, “What do big black rockfish like?”  I realized at that point I had been pretty lucky to find some in the past and I truly didn’t know or understand their structure like I did some of the other fish.  Crappy feeling on the last day when I should have done my homework rather than just thinking it is Mendo and there are a ton of big blacks up there.

I think regardless of whether a fish is considered “garbage” or a “trash” fish, a trophy fish of any species is an accomplishment.  To put more value on a fish because it is what you personally target takes away from the overall point of the competition.  As stated multiple times if you have a moral or ethical stance against shooting a smaller sized fish then don’t do it.  That is your decision as a hunter and no one can question it.  If you feel by playing DOTY it compromises your values then don’t play or pass up that fish, let’s not get into the same mindset where if it doesn’t work for me then we should change the way we play the game.

That being said I hate shooting MFE, greenling and perch.  I shot 4 greenlings, 2 perch and 2 MFE this year.  I have plenty of friends and family that eat it so I am okay giving it away.  If I decided I couldn’t eat it or didn’t have anyone to eat it, I wouldn’t shoot it, not try to change the rules of a competition where it is voluntary to compete.

Another note is if we went to a pure top 10 competition and kept point totals the same then someone who shoots/harvests the following could win: Perch, B&Y, greenling, abalone, kelpie, grassy, blue, mfe, black and Cab.  Without shooting the rest of the fish, some which I think require more skill/time/season etc, I think a lot of people would be unhappy with the final results unless we started adjusting points per fish which would turn DOTY into a different comp than it is intended to be.  Cutting down the amount of fish for those who travel or are newer isn’t really part of competing.  I played sports my entire life, coached at a pretty high level for almost a decade and don’t believe any would benefit from having only 10 fish in the comp and make people feel better about their participation award.  I think points for fish can and should always be looked at and re-evaluated if something comes up that calls for a significant change in the point system such as an 11 inch ab but since everyone does have the same point totals for abs it doesn’t skew the system as lorikay pointed out.

Another thing to think about is in 2013 when Jim shot his halibut, he won because he went out time after time to find them. In 2014 you had the top 7 with butts which showed growth in the comp because everyone knew you needed a butt to win.  Jim changed DOTY by going out and finding a Halibut, had he not done that I don’t know how many people would have gone out and gotten them.  Same with a WSB, when someone shoots a Norcal ghost and wins DOTY because of their dedication and drive to sit in the cold nasty murk they will have changed the game.  I would not be surprised that the next year had a few of them in the top 10 because the dive community would have grown.

There are a lot of ideas being thrown out there about comps and how it should or could be done but the reality is most of us will not be the ones organizing the events, chasing down sponsors, verifying fish and getting others to do it.  Jim does all of that and even though DOTY belongs to NCKA it is his and Fuzz’s design and definitely Jim’s passion.  I know Jim is trying to do right by the community and I think in large he has.  There are a ton of divers out there that would have never hunted or learned about most the species on the list if not for DOTY.  If this was anyone else’s comp/design and someone tried to implement new rules past the start date I’m pretty sure they’d get shot down immediately but Jim being Jim is trying to work with everyone and do the right thing.  I learned a long time ago you will never do the “right thing” when it comes to pleasing everyone and at the end of the day feel Jim has more say and ownership in this comp than anyone else and that alone should give him 51% of the vote.  If you don’t like it don’t play or start your own comp, line up sponsors, field opinions from a couple dozen people and let us know how it goes and if it runs as smooth as DOTY does.  Maybe some of you can get it off the ground and maybe it will do well and give divers another option to play and that would be fantastic.

I know we are getting ready to announce a few competitions soon and we have been working hard on them and they will only be single day comps.  That being said if you are also in the mindset to give certain fish more points than other well Cencal, GLACD and a few other spearfishing organizations put on some great comps that are pretty cut throat; go play in those where same day same ocean applies and truly test your skill if you are of that mindset.

DOTY is a species style tournament to show a diver’s ability to learn and harvest the list of fish given.  If you have suggestions on the fish to add, separate or take away do like most do and make the suggestions well in advance and give the board proper time to go over the submission, possible effects of changing the rules and time to implement them.  Once you set a precedent for someone changing something after comp has started then who is to say how many days/weeks/months is acceptable. We have rules in life for a reason, respect the rules.  If you want to change the rules do it in a proper fashion and speak up when given the opportunity, such as when Jim sent PM in early December.

If we are going to put a personal spin on it maybe I already spent time and money camping 3 days in Big Sur trying to slay fish I don’t even need this year now.

Matt


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FWIW, my vote as a committee member is:

"No change for 2016 (since 2016 has already started), discuss and evaluate ALL of these potential changes for 2017 and create polls of various options (Pete's option, Yowlie's min size limit etc) and PM DOTY players and ask them for their input and use that unrushed input to create changes (if need be) for 2017 that reflect what the majority of DOTY players want".


This, too many opinions to change now.

Here is my two cents:

I like the current setup for DOTY because it does push you to go out and learn/hunt every species.  DOTY was started and is setup as a species competition where if you want to win you are pushed to go out and hunt more species not just those you like to target.

I think a top 10 fish comp is great but it is not what DOTY was set out to be.  I think the top 10 for AOTY works because not every angler lives near the salt and being part of NCKA does not mean you have to kayak fish in the ocean whereas DOTY we are almost exclusively in the ocean minus some people doing stripers.  It is a commitment to fill all species and truly does show your knowledge of fish habitat and where they may be.

I know where a few species live but when I headed out to get a larger black rockfish on the 31st my question to Deke was, “What do big black rockfish like?”  I realized at that point I had been pretty lucky to find some in the past and I truly didn’t know or understand their structure like I did some of the other fish.  Crappy feeling on the last day when I should have done my homework rather than just thinking it is Mendo and there are a ton of big blacks up there.

I think regardless of whether a fish is considered “garbage” or a “trash” fish, a trophy fish of any species is an accomplishment.  To put more value on a fish because it is what you personally target takes away from the overall point of the competition.  As stated multiple times if you have a moral or ethical stance against shooting a smaller sized fish then don’t do it.  That is your decision as a hunter and no one can question it.  If you feel by playing DOTY it compromises your values then don’t play or pass up that fish, let’s not get into the same mindset where if it doesn’t work for me then we should change the way we play the game.

That being said I hate shooting MFE, greenling and perch.  I shot 4 greenlings, 2 perch and 2 MFE this year.  I have plenty of friends and family that eat it so I am okay giving it away.  If I decided I couldn’t eat it or didn’t have anyone to eat it, I wouldn’t shoot it, not try to change the rules of a competition where it is voluntary to compete.

Another note is if we went to a pure top 10 competition and kept point totals the same then someone who shoots/harvests the following could win: Perch, B&Y, greenling, abalone, kelpie, grassy, blue, mfe, black and Cab.  Without shooting the rest of the fish, some which I think require more skill/time/season etc, I think a lot of people would be unhappy with the final results unless we started adjusting points per fish which would turn DOTY into a different comp than it is intended to be.  Cutting down the amount of fish for those who travel or are newer isn’t really part of competing.  I played sports my entire life, coached at a pretty high level for almost a decade and don’t believe any would benefit from having only 10 fish in the comp and make people feel better about their participation award.  I think points for fish can and should always be looked at and re-evaluated if something comes up that calls for a significant change in the point system such as an 11 inch ab but since everyone does have the same point totals for abs it doesn’t skew the system as lorikay pointed out.

Another thing to think about is in 2013 when Jim shot his halibut, he won because he went out time after time to find them. In 2014 you had the top 7 with butts which showed growth in the comp because everyone knew you needed a butt to win.  Jim changed DOTY by going out and finding a Halibut, had he not done that I don’t know how many people would have gone out and gotten them.  Same with a WSB, when someone shoots a Norcal ghost and wins DOTY because of their dedication and drive to sit in the cold nasty murk they will have changed the game.  I would not be surprised that the next year had a few of them in the top 10 because the dive community would have grown.

There are a lot of ideas being thrown out there about comps and how it should or could be done but the reality is most of us will not be the ones organizing the events, chasing down sponsors, verifying fish and getting others to do it.  Jim does all of that and even though DOTY belongs to NCKA it is his and Fuzz’s design and definitely Jim’s passion.  I know Jim is trying to do right by the community and I think in large he has.  There are a ton of divers out there that would have never hunted or learned about most the species on the list if not for DOTY.  If this was anyone else’s comp/design and someone tried to implement new rules past the start date I’m pretty sure they’d get shot down immediately but Jim being Jim is trying to work with everyone and do the right thing.  I learned a long time ago you will never do the “right thing” when it comes to pleasing everyone and at the end of the day feel Jim has more say and ownership in this comp than anyone else and that alone should give him 51% of the vote.  If you don’t like it don’t play or start your own comp, line up sponsors, field opinions from a couple dozen people and let us know how it goes and if it runs as smooth as DOTY does.  Maybe some of you can get it off the ground and maybe it will do well and give divers another option to play and that would be fantastic.

I know we are getting ready to announce a few competitions soon and we have been working hard on them and they will only be single day comps.  That being said if you are also in the mindset to give certain fish more points than other well Cencal, GLACD and a few other spearfishing organizations put on some great comps that are pretty cut throat; go play in those where same day same ocean applies and truly test your skill if you are of that mindset.

DOTY is a species style tournament to show a diver’s ability to learn and harvest the list of fish given.  If you have suggestions on the fish to add, separate or take away do like most do and make the suggestions well in advance and give the board proper time to go over the submission, possible effects of changing the rules and time to implement them.  Once you set a precedent for someone changing something after comp has started then who is to say how many days/weeks/months is acceptable. We have rules in life for a reason, respect the rules.  If you want to change the rules do it in a proper fashion and speak up when given the opportunity, such as when Jim sent PM in early December.

If we are going to put a personal spin on it maybe I already spent time and money camping 3 days in Big Sur trying to slay fish I don’t even need this year now.

Matt

Well said. BTW you have 2 weeks to post up your Big Sur fish  :smt001

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RottieOwner

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With all due respect Pete (especially as a committee member this year) if you were unhappy with the way the comp was going why didn't you bring it up for discussion earlier?

I personally think it was inconsiderate and kinda shitty to bring up such drastic changes after the New Year, especially when myself and the other members of the committee are scrambling to get the 2016 sites up and running ASAP, and getting the awards ceremony planned, and all the plaques and prizes secured in time etc...

We have a private forum for this stuff but you have never once posted or participated over there...maybe you only have access under your other handle I dunno but I do know I sent texts and PMs to you and Charlie and nelson with links to threads and issues so you had plenty of opportunities to bring this stuff up.

 :smt005

Sincerely,

Jim

Jim, with an equal amount of respect back (obviously, I'm hoping none of this is coming across as personal), it's not like I thought this up in June and then decided to wait until now to bring it up. I saw how the last stretch of the tournament went, thought about the scoring system as a whole, and thought this might improve the tournament. But I agree, the timing on it is not ideal.

If we all decide not to adopt the changes, great. If we do, great. In the end, the tournament will run, trash will be talked, and last minute position changes will happen.

Lastly, I volunteered to be part of the committee after you asked me to help out because I, like everyone else, appreciate the obscene amount of work you put into this tournament and wanted to take some of the burden off you. If that means that me making a suggestion after being asked my thoughts is especially inconsiderate to you, then by all means, remove me. Charlie says he'll cover the stuff I was taking care of.



DG

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Sweet, so it sounds like same rules new year.  Let's do this. 
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Desertdiver

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First off I want to say Thank You to the DOTY Founders and Board Members past and present. The time and effort you put into DOTY is greatly appreciated by this ocean lover who lives in the desert.  I have been following the suggestions and see some great ideas, some I agree with and some I need a little time to mull over.  Personally I would like to see the DOTY format remain as is it is this year.  During 2016 we can take time to examine and compare rule change suggestions that the DOTY Board would implement.  Like I said there are some great ideas and discussions that I would like to get a better understanding of.  This is a fun, friendly, educational type of competition, it encourages us to travel, explore and experience Ma Ocean's wonders.  I hope it stays that way.  Whatever way the DOTY Board decides I will still participate this year and hopefully for many years to come. 
Russ