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2017 AOTY/DOTY Entry

Topic: DOTY 2016 Rule Change Suggestion  (Read 1532 times)

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BigJim

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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.

My vote is for this the above.

Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)

Well there you go.

Done deal since you and Pete voted for it and Charlie is MIA, so no more point discussing.

I'm disappointed you guys waited until past the end of 2015 to bring this up and didn't give more people a chance to express their opinion, but it is what it is.

~GS 4  2010-1st~DOTY 2012-5th~DOTY 2013-1st~DOTY 2014-5th~T2B2 2015-1st~DOTY 2015-4th~DOTY 2016-7th~


nelson kwok

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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.

My vote is for this the above.

Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)

Well there you go.

Done deal since you and Pete voted for it and Charlie is MIA, so no more point discussing.

I'm disappointed you guys waited until past the end of 2015 to bring this up and didn't give more people a chance to express their opinion, but it is what it is.

I don't think this discussion needs to end and I still want to hear people voice their opinions. 



AnnieAreYouOk

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Girls should have some unfair advantage :smt044

Just my 2 cents


Hunterlee

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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.

My vote is for this the above.d

Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)

I'm new to DOTY and fairly new to spearfishing. I think submitting all 18 or so species of fish/shellfish for the DOTY tournament would improve my diving and hunting skills much more as compared to only submitting 8 or 10 species. The main factor would be the motivation and the requirement to search for all species from Big Sur to the far North.

If the rule changes to top 10 or so fish, my concentration for this tournament would move toward finding fish I'm most successful in finding (kelp, grass, greenling, perch, mfpb, abs...). In this case, we have "lesser" divers looking for different set of fish compared to the more accomplished divers in the same tournament. I feel a tournament should have the same paths and goals for all contestants so that it can be used as a personal measuring stick so to speak.

Personally, I like eating all fish and don't have any preference (they all kind of taste the same). My wife's favorite is perch!

I have a suggestion to tweak the scoring a bit. I agree that there should be a tweak in the scoring system. For example, a 10 inch ab should be a trophy (200 pts) and an 11 inch ab should be worth way more than 210 pts. Currently, the scoring system uses a linear scale, which doesn't account for awarding value in finding fish beyond the trophy level (200 pts). Lets say the score for a trophy vermilion is 220 using a linear scoring system. By using an exponential scale, for example an exponent of 1.15 for the 20 points above trophy status, we get a score of 200 + 20^(1.15) = 231.34, thus adding 11.34 points more for finding a fish above trophy status. This exponent value can be determined using previous DOTY entries but   will be different for different species.
This will allow divers who choose "quality" over quantity to get extra points for trophy fish and won't be penalized for not upgrading to a perch. Looking at the 2015 DOTY, it would be interesting to see how the score would move and what it represents.


DG

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Girls should have some unfair advantage :smt044

Just my 2 cents

Yes girls, but not women who can dive to 70'. 

You out fish many men so I know you are not serious. 
-----------------------------------
DG = 1st name Duane / last name starts with G.  Not very creative, but InsaneDuane was already taken.


AnnieAreYouOk

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Haha you got me there DG. I'm never serious. Any opportunity I have to make myself laugh I take it!  :smt005

I'm not contributing anything to this conversation. I'm just looking forward to participating in DOTY this year.  :smt003


RottieOwner

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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.

My vote is for this the above.d

Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)

I'm new to DOTY and fairly new to spearfishing. I think submitting all 18 or so species of fish/shellfish for the DOTY tournament would improve my diving and hunting skills much more as compared to only submitting 8 or 10 species. The main factor would be the motivation and the requirement to search for all species from Big Sur to the far North.

If the rule changes to top 10 or so fish, my concentration for this tournament would move toward finding fish I'm most successful in finding (kelp, grass, greenling, perch, mfpb, abs...). In this case, we have "lesser" divers looking for different set of fish compared to the more accomplished divers in the same tournament. I feel a tournament should have the same paths and goals for all contestants so that it can be used as a personal measuring stick so to speak.

Personally, I like eating all fish and don't have any preference (they all kind of taste the same). My wife's favorite is perch!

I have a suggestion to tweak the scoring a bit. I agree that there should be a tweak in the scoring system. For example, a 10 inch ab should be a trophy (200 pts) and an 11 inch ab should be worth way more than 210 pts. Currently, the scoring system uses a linear scale, which doesn't account for awarding value in finding fish beyond the trophy level (200 pts). Lets say the score for a trophy vermilion is 220 using a linear scoring system. By using an exponential scale, for example an exponent of 1.15 for the 20 points above trophy status, we get a score of 200 + 20^(1.15) = 231.34, thus adding 11.34 points more for finding a fish above trophy status. This exponent value can be determined using previous DOTY entries but   will be different for different species.
This will allow divers who choose "quality" over quantity to get extra points for trophy fish and won't be penalized for not upgrading to a perch. Looking at the 2015 DOTY, it would be interesting to see how the score would move and what it represents.

What you're saying with an exponent scoring value makes sense, but I think guys will have a tough time agreeing to it when it comes down to quarter inches in the last few days of the tournament. To me, the beauty of the linear scoring is its simplicity. It's very straightforward and uncomplicated.

Personally, I think seeing that there are 18 options of fish to shoot/pop/grab will get you out there looking for different stuff. Keep in mind that the bias isn't huge, and the bias is only geared towards the 5 most sought after species. With 10 submissions, that means that 5 other species are up for grabs. Realistically, your odds of placing in the top tier are higher with this method, because you don't need to get the harder to acquire species in order to win. With the old system, if you didn't find a halibut (only about 8 guys got one last year), it would not have been possible for you to place in the top 6. Now, you'd only have 20 points to make up elsewhere for a different species (biggest one taken this year was 220 points).

Lastly, I agree with you on the abalone thing whole-heartedly and think they should be worth 20 points per inch (simple...10" ab means 200, which is trophy). I was furious to see my 11.25" ab score less than a 20" perch, of which there were three taken this year. The same for Parviz. Getting an ab of that size is a much bigger accomplishment than a 20" perch, IMHO. That's why I tweaked the point values. To me, the new values make a lot more sense.

Given the current bias and without the point change, this will likely be the winning set of 10 fish for 2016, based on typical, historical scores that come in for them:

1.   Kelp Rockfish
2.   Cabezon
3.   Lingcod
4.   Perch
5.   Halibut
6.   Vermillion
7.   MFE
8.   Black Rockfish
9.   Black and Yellow/China
10.   Grass Rockfish

You can alternate the black/yellow or grass rockfish with abalone if you're regularly pulling 10"+ abs
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:23:40 PM by RottieOwner »


Yowlie

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I think more species is better.  It doesn't have to be all 18, but it doesn't have to be 8 or 10.  More species equals more water time, more work.  It makes this into a real marathon, and it makes you have to change your routine and dedicate a dive day to something different.  It also adds more of an aspect of chance.  Finding a very large Kelpie, blue, or B&Y is more of a random event.  And that rewards newbies and people who spend more time in the water.

But, we do not want to promote any killing of fish that would not otherwise occur.  We can solve that by not counting all 18 fish, by putting minimum size limits on fish, and/or by putting point caps on fish (greenlings, kelpies, perch, and blues max at 180, for example).

Finally, I see no harm in adjusting points per fish, but bias-weighting the top trophy fish seems like it hurts the new divers.  New divers will already be beaten straight up in those categories.  I think we just take the average of the nearly top 3 fish in each category (excluding #1) and call that a 200.  We can call a 10" ab a 200, because that happens to be a magic number.    These does not address Pete's concern that a perch beats an 11" inch ab.  The answer to that is to embrace it and say that we are handicapping perch, in part to help newbies get points.  Pete still wins that ab category and still has an opportunity to shoot a 221 point perch himself.  The Dipsea Race is handicapped every year based on age and gender.  Slower people get to start first.  It is one of the most famous footraces in America and it has been won by a nine-year-old girl.  That's one of the things that makes it so significant.

SO;

Count Top 14 fish
Abs are 20 points per inch
No fish under 12"
200 points represents the average of 2d-4th biggest fish in that category for all DOTY years.  #2-#4 Verms average to 23".  200/23= 8.7.  This handicapping would be updated the same way every year, so the 200 point ideal evolves.  200 would no longer signify trophy.  It would be the ideal.  Breaking 200 should mean it might be the biggest in DOTY history.


My two cents . . . .
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 09:52:33 AM by Yowlie »


BigJim

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FWIW, my vote as a committee member is:

"No change for 2016 (since 2016 has already started), discuss and evaluate ALL of these potential changes for 2017 and create polls of various options (Pete's option, Yowlie's min size limit etc) and PM DOTY players and ask them for their input and use that unrushed input to create changes (if need be) for 2017 that reflect what the majority of DOTY players want".

Texting with Nelson and his vote seems to be "Go to Top Ten for 2016, leave points per inch unchanged".

Pete's vote is outlined in first post "Go to Top Ten for 2016 and change points per inch as proposed".

I have texted Charlie to alert him to this discussion and to try and get his input.

Sincerely,

Jim



« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 10:13:23 AM by BigJim »

~GS 4  2010-1st~DOTY 2012-5th~DOTY 2013-1st~DOTY 2014-5th~T2B2 2015-1st~DOTY 2015-4th~DOTY 2016-7th~


Nick F

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I’ll preface this by saying I enjoy DOTY and appreciate all the work the committee does to keep it going. Thanks very much guys!

With that said, I don't like perch or abalone, so I would really prefer not to take any. I don't like diving in shallow water, so I'd prefer not to target grassies or MFE. I tried diving for halibut three times last year and I just did not enjoy any of those dives. And I live quite far from the ocean, which means that in a good year I'll see the water maybe 20 times. So I'd prefer not to spend those trips diving areas I don't want to dive and shooting fish I don't want to shoot.

I feel like counting just your top ten species would open up the competition to more divers. However, the way fish are scored currently, it would also provide a clear incentive to target certain species. It would be nice if the scoring system were adjusted to attempt to remove the bias rather than simply shifting the bias from one set of ten species to another “preferred” set. This can’t be done effectively by adjusting only the points-per-inch. There would have to be a whole new scoring system that takes into account not only the size of a “trophy” within each species, but also the overall distribution of lengths that are likely to be submitted.

That would be a complicated change, though. And it seems a little late now to be discussing new rules for 2016, especially if some folks have already paid their fees. So while I welcome any change that means I don't feel pressure to hunt every DOTY species, my preference is for thoughtful changes next year rather than hasty ones right now.


Jeremy

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We're only 6 days into 2016 at this point, so I don't think there's really an issue with late notice of rule changes.  I doubt these changes are so significant that people won't want to participate.  It's not like it's going to be mandatory to shoot a WSB.

At least for me, this isn't Pokemon.  It isn't about dominating every species in the ocean.  Even at 18 fish we're excluding a lot of fish that could be included, like treefish, opaleye, blacksmith, angel sharks, giant kelpfish, senioritas, buffalo sculpin, wolf eels, and sand dabs.  We could also split up the gopher/BY/chinas and rock/kelp greenlings.  Why not include octopus on points per pound, or snails by points per millimeter?

The point is that moving to a top 10 fish system opens the top spots to MORE divers because new divers aren't required to shoot harder-to-find fish, and more experienced divers aren't penalized by not shooting fish they won't eat.  Keeping it at 10 fish will still force divers to explore new areas too.  You're not going to shoot a sheep and pull an abalone in the same day.  You're not going to find an MFE and halibut lying next to each other either.  Vermillion and grassies aren't friends.


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We're only 6 days into 2016 at this point, so I don't think there's really an issue with late notice of rule changes.  I doubt these changes are so significant that people won't want to participate.  It's not like it's going to be mandatory to shoot a WSB.

At least for me, this isn't Pokemon.  It isn't about dominating every species in the ocean.  Even at 18 fish we're excluding a lot of fish that could be included, like treefish, opaleye, blacksmith, angel sharks, giant kelpfish, senioritas, buffalo sculpin, wolf eels, and sand dabs.  We could also split up the gopher/BY/chinas and rock/kelp greenlings.  Why not include octopus on points per pound, or snails by points per millimeter?

The point is that moving to a top 10 fish system opens the top spots to MORE divers because new divers aren't required to shoot harder-to-find fish, and more experienced divers aren't penalized by not shooting fish they won't eat.  Keeping it at 10 fish will still force divers to explore new areas too.  You're not going to shoot a sheep and pull an abalone in the same day.  You're not going to find an MFE and halibut lying next to each other either.  Vermillion and grassies aren't friends.
Sand Dabs & Snails  :smt044


Zpearo

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I think more species is better.  It doesn't have to be all 18, but it doesn't have to be 8 or 10.  More species equals more water time, more work.  It makes this into a real marathon, and it makes you have to change your routine and dedicate a dive day to something different.  It also adds more of an aspect of chance.  Finding a very large Kelpie, blue, or B&Y is more of a random event.  And that rewards newbies and people who spend more time in the water.

But, we do not want to promote any killing of fish that would not otherwise occur.  We can solve that by not counting all 18 fish, by putting minimum size limits on fish, and/or by putting point caps on fish (greenlings, kelpies, perch, and blues max at 180, for example).

Finally, I see no harm in adjusting points per fish, but bias-weighting the top trophy fish seems like it hurts the new divers.  New divers will already be beaten straight up in those categories.  I think we just take the average of the nearly top 3 fish in each category (excluding #1) and call that a 200.  We can call a 10" ab a 200, because that happens to be a magic number.    These does not address Pete's concern that a perch beats an 11" inch ab.  The answer to that is to embrace it and say that we are handicapping perch, in part to help newbies get points.  Pete still wins that ab category and still has an opportunity to shoot a 221 point perch himself.  The Dipsea Race is handicapped every year based on age and gender.  Slower people get to start first.  It is one of the most famous footraces in America and it has been won by a nine-year-old girl.  That's one of the things that makes it so significant.

SO;

Count Top 14 fish
Abs are 20 points per inch
No fish under 12"
200 points represents the average of 2d-4th biggest fish in that category for all DOTY years.  #2-#4 Verms average to 23".  200/23= 8.7.  This handicapping would be updated the same way every year, so the 200 point ideal evolves.  200 would no longer signify trophy.  It would be the ideal.  Breaking 200 should mean it might be the biggest in DOTY history.

As someone who has never done DOTY but is considering it, I think moving down from 18/20 species is a good idea. 10 or 12 fish would be much more manageable.

I like a lot of what Yowlie proposed, especially the adjustment in scoring system. That should remove any bias toward certain species by setting standards based upon the sizes that have been taken historically. Also, putting minimum sizes and limiting the number of upgrades could keep people from shooting lots of small fish they wouldn't otherwise take.


lorikay2

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My vote is to leave it the same for 2016. We already entered the New Year and people are already playing.  Changes should have been made prior to the start with time for people to voice their opinions before the year started.
   More or less, I'm happy with the format of the competition.  I understand that a 20'' perch shouldn't be worth 20 points more than an 8.5 inch scallop, but given that all players are receiving the same amount of points per inch, it really doesn't matters at the end in totals.  The whole point scale vs. trophy fish is only a title; not a game changer.  If that really is a problem, sure, change it to more realistic point numbers. But it won't change anything in the end if we're all getting the same points per fish.
   I believe the 18 fish competition should be left the way it is.  This was my first year of competing in DOTY and before this year, I probably did only shoot about 10 of the fish per year.  This competition forced me to go places I knew the fish I needed would be and it also forced me to network more with other divers to help expand my knowledge on fish patterns and locations.  In the spirit of title of the competition "Diver of The Year", I feel that a 10 fish count would greatly dumb down the comp.  We're given 365 days to shoot 18 different fish.  It takes less than 11.5 hours to drive from south Monterey County to the Oregon border.  One participant in 2015 shot 16 different fish species for the comp on December 27th, 28th and 31st.  If we only had 10 fish to fill, a person who has only been diving a few months could will the tile of DOTY.  Not really sure that's fair???  I understand the argument for people to advocate for a 10 fish count, and there were fish that I didn't enjoy hunting, but I rather see people hunting a wide variety rather than everyone blowing up one area to get the easy top ten.
   I've personally shot 17 of the 18 fish in less than 35 feet of water.  If you're going to start removing fish, I would understand combining WSB and halibut into one category such as "china/ black yellow/ gopher".  If a person shot a WSB, they would almost be unstoppable in the comp given the rarity of the fish.
   No matter what the rule changes become, I had a great time diving DOTY 2015 and can't wait to start diving 2016.  Thank you to all the board members and good luck to all that participate.


Steve
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2015 5th place DOTY
2016 3rd place DOTY


RottieOwner

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As someone who has never done DOTY but is considering it, I think moving down from 18/20 species is a good idea. 10 or 12 fish would be much more manageable.

I like a lot of what Yowlie proposed, especially the adjustment in scoring system. That should remove any bias toward certain species by setting standards based upon the sizes that have been taken historically. Also, putting minimum sizes and limiting the number of upgrades could keep people from shooting lots of small fish they wouldn't otherwise take.

This would work for me as well. I'm not overly enthusiastic about taking out the biases, but if that's the community feel, it would be easy to adjust the points per inch as Yowlie suggested. I think you guys have a good point by saying that removing the biases would open the field for newer divers.

God I hope it's not a .25" MFE upgrade that beats a WSB or a halibut entry though....

Jim, I don't think there are that many people who would opt out if they can only submit ten species instead of 18. I'd be willing to bet there are more guys, myself included, who are less excited to compete this year with the way the current rules stand.



 

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