Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 14, 2017, 02:55:27 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent Topics

[Today at 02:39:14 PM]

[Today at 02:23:19 PM]

[Today at 02:15:05 PM]

by Lir
[Today at 02:11:37 PM]

[Today at 01:22:06 PM]

[Today at 01:15:48 PM]

[Today at 01:02:38 PM]

[Today at 12:25:31 PM]

[Today at 11:57:37 AM]

[Today at 11:37:11 AM]

[Today at 11:35:16 AM]

[Today at 11:00:55 AM]

[Today at 10:56:03 AM]

[Today at 10:39:28 AM]

[Today at 10:38:33 AM]

[Today at 10:04:33 AM]

[Today at 09:49:14 AM]

[Today at 09:23:05 AM]

[Today at 09:20:25 AM]

[Today at 09:17:17 AM]

[Today at 08:54:19 AM]

by bmb
[Today at 07:43:35 AM]

[Today at 01:34:45 AM]

[Today at 12:45:14 AM]

[December 13, 2017, 09:57:31 PM]

[December 13, 2017, 09:45:22 PM]

[December 13, 2017, 06:41:43 PM]

[December 13, 2017, 06:27:33 PM]

by Tote
[December 13, 2017, 05:25:53 PM]

by SOMA
[December 13, 2017, 04:02:33 PM]

Support NCKA

Support the site by making a donation.

2017 AOTY/DOTY Entry

Topic: DOTY 2016 Rule Change Suggestion  (Read 1530 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BigJim

  • A-Hull
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • No white flags.
  • View Profile
  • Location: Watsonville
  • Date Registered: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 14162
The below rule change has been proposed by DOTY committee member StinkyPete:

Quote
I'm basing this on the idea that the top 8-10 fish scores get submitted. Here's my reasoning for the system:

-I'm adding a point bias towards Abalone, Cabezon, Halibut, Lingcod (already biased), Sheepshead, Vermillion, WSB since those are the primary species targeted in the tournament bounds

-By only submitting 8 species (or 10) and having the bias in place, it pushes people to target the primary species rather than winning off garbage. You can't win without coming up fairly big on just about all of the primary species (minus wsb).

-Limiting the entries means that the tournament will most likely not come down to someone running out to shoot slight upgrades on garbage fish, since all the junkier fish trophy sizes come right around the 185-195 point mark.

-Eliminates the "loophole fish", ie lesser fish which have huge point values. These are the perch (220 points for 2 divers), MFE (Adam's was 218.75...sorry Jim), grass rockfish and kelp rockfish (three kelp rock fish over 210 points, are you kidding me??? An 11" abalone is currently only 209 points).


My initial response via email was as follows:

Quote
As explained in my texts my vote is no.

I believe such drastic changes to the game (point value changes and change from having all species count towards total points) warrant further discussion and input from a wider range of players.

I propose leaving the game unchanged for 2016 (since we are already in 2016), and creating a thread and poll to solicit input and feedback throughout the year on the proposed changes.

Such a thread would allow Peter to explain to other players why such changes would be beneficial for DOTY, and allow discussion of consequences for different levels (and geographic locations) of players, and exploration of different scenarios.

We already have a public thread dedicated to discussion and suggestions for DOTY changes, and I feel this is the place where these changes should have been presented to DOTY players and analyzed much earlier.

The thread pointed out to Jjjjeremy here has 13 pages of good discussion from back in 2014:

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=61455.0

Nelson and Charlie?

Sincerely,

Jim

I have some more detailed concerns and reasons why I do not support the proposal that I will post as soon as I get a chance this morning.

Please chime in with YOUR thoughts and feedback and whether or not you support the proposal.

Since time is of the essence, I'm hoping we can make a final decision by Friday at the latest so we can get the 2016 site up and running...sound fair?

 :smt006

Sincerely,

Jim





~GS 4  2010-1st~DOTY 2012-5th~DOTY 2013-1st~DOTY 2014-5th~T2B2 2015-1st~DOTY 2015-4th~DOTY 2016-7th~


BigJim

  • A-Hull
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • No white flags.
  • View Profile
  • Location: Watsonville
  • Date Registered: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 14162
Here are some of my thoughts and reasons why I vote against the proposal:

1. I feel very strongly that all DOTY species should count towards total points. One of the COOLEST things about DOTY IMO is that it really challenges divers (in particular newer divers) to push themselves outside their comfort zone...and I think it would totally suck to have a diver get their first halibut, sheephead, verm, monkey, olive, grassy, scallop or whatever and not have it even make a difference in their score or show up on their list of fish...

Also, by only having a player's top ten species count you remove the incentive to travel and hunt species outside of your geographic comfort zone. For example a diver in mendo could focus on species that are relatively easy to find in their local reefs: Ling, Cab, Abalone, Scallop, Black, Verm, China, Grassy, Blue, Greenling. Could pretty easily get those 10 species in one weekend of diving and there would be zero incentive to look for a halibut or a sheephead or an olive or any other DOTY fish.

2. One thing that I have been thinking about, especially in regards to DOTY since it is a much newer comp than AOTY and one I have spent a lot of time working on, is that it is important to realize that any time we make changes we change the game...and the "value" of fish, points, finishers etc....

For example...in DOTY's first year we had calico as a species...in the 2nd year we took out calico....in the third year we changed the rules so that you couldn't point out fish to other divers...in the fourth year we added scallops...

I think all of those have been good changes, but ideally I would like to see some consistency from year to year so that players can really look back and compare their score/ranking historically....so unless a change really makes sense then I think it would be better to leave the rules etc as is...the rules and points may not be perfect but everybody is playing with the same rules at least.

3. Fuzz, Rick and I worked in late 2011 on establishing the Points-Per-Inch system using 200 points as the benchmark for max/trophy sized fish...it is NOT perfect but we used a combination of what is considered a trophy, state record size fish, and DFG info on max size.

Pete's proposal would do the following:

-Change abalone so that we would have 52 abalone of 200 points or more (ten inches or more)...not really max size if we have so many at 200 pts or more
-Change grass Rf so that we would never have had a grass rockfish of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 21 inches and Pete is proposing 22 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change greenling so that we would never have had a greenling of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 18.25 inches and Pete is proposing 19.05 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change Monkey point values so that three state records would not have been 200 point fish.
-Change Perch values so that current state record would not be a 200 point fish

3. I think the proposal is also elitist and discouraging to newer divers because it has a bias against species that are found more commonly in near shore habitats. Biasing the point system and labeling species as junk or trash fish is not something I support.

With all that said...I recognize that I myself am biased....I proposed the DOTY idea back in 2011 and worked hard to get it up and running with the help of fuzz, rick and the AOTY committee guys of that time.

If this is the direction that players want to see the game go I don't want to let my opinions hold people back...bottom line is that I am only one vote on the committee.

But I strongly encourage people to consider what kind of game DOTY has been for the past 4 yours, how much fun has been had by divers of all skill levels, and what kind of game it would become by supporting this proposal.

At the very least I propose continuing with DOTY rules as is for 2016 and allowing more time to review, discuss and consider this proposal over the course of the year.

Sincerely,

Jim

« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 09:00:45 AM by BigJim »

~GS 4  2010-1st~DOTY 2012-5th~DOTY 2013-1st~DOTY 2014-5th~T2B2 2015-1st~DOTY 2015-4th~DOTY 2016-7th~


Fish Master1

  • If it bleeds I can kill it.
  • Sea Lion
  • ****
  • A-Hull Muggle
  • View Profile
  • Location: Prunedale California
  • Date Registered: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 9258
Too much to read but if you start changing shit you will probably notice a lot more folks not competing. This aint spearboard. :smt006


DG

  • Sea Lion
  • ****
  • First joined in 2013
  • View Profile
  • Location: Ft Bragg
  • Date Registered: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3402
I posted my opinion on the thread link you posted above. 

Still not sure I would suggest a change now that a handful of folks already paid for 2016 thinking things were the same. 

But at some point if some of the fish Pete mentioned like perch or greenling were just given a flat length like an inch no matter how long they are it would still encourage people to hunt different areas for at least a few dives a year.  Great for new divers as I loved trying different areas and learning where different species hide or feed.  After a couple dives most divers know how to find them so it would give them more time to focus on bigger fish. 

I still remember my first dive and limited knowledge of ocean species.  Having a large pool of species to go after sure helps with properly learning them.
-----------------------------------
DG = 1st name Duane / last name starts with G.  Not very creative, but InsaneDuane was already taken.


Adam415

  • Sand Dab
  • **
  • View Profile
  • Location: Novato
  • Date Registered: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 83
Im in favor of submitting your ten largest fish. My last big sur venture would have been way more enjoyable if i werent sizing up blues, kelpies, and perch. Im not sure what i think of the new propossed point scale. If we ever went to a 10 fish format it would be pretty discouraging to have a perch beat out a nice ling.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 09:17:21 AM by Adam415 »
Wilderness systems Thresher 155
Current designs altura
Ocean kayak scupper pro
Ocean kayak malibu 2 xl
Wilderness systems tarpon 160i


  • Cabeza de Martillo
  • View Profile
  • Location: San Jose
  • Date Registered: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 6030
Here are some of my thoughts and reasons why I vote against the proposal:

1. I feel very strongly that all DOTY species should count towards total points. One of the COOLEST things about DOTY IMO is that it really challenges divers (in particular newer divers) to push themselves outside their comfort zone...and I think it would totally suck to have a diver get their first halibut, sheephead, verm, monkey, olive, grassy, scallop or whatever and not have it even make a difference in their score or show up on their list of fish...

Also, by only having a player's top ten species count you remove the incentive to travel and hunt species outside of your geographic comfort zone. For example a diver in mendo could focus on species that are relatively easy to find in their local reefs: Ling, Cab, Abalone, Scallop, Black, Verm, China, Grassy, Blue, Greenling. Could pretty easily get those 10 species in one weekend of diving and there would be zero incentive to look for a halibut or a sheephead or an olive or any other DOTY fish.

2. One thing that I have been thinking about, especially in regards to DOTY since it is a much newer comp than AOTY and one I have spent a lot of time working on, is that it is important to realize that any time we make changes we change the game...and the "value" of fish, points, finishers etc....

For example...in DOTY's first year we had calico as a species...in the 2nd year we took out calico....in the third year we changed the rules so that you couldn't point out fish to other divers...in the fourth year we added scallops...

I think all of those have been good changes, but ideally I would like to see some consistency from year to year so that players can really look back and compare their score/ranking historically....so unless a change really makes sense then I think it would be better to leave the rules etc as is...the rules and points may not be perfect but everybody is playing with the same rules at least.

3. Fuzz, Rick and I worked in late 2011 on establishing the Points-Per-Inch system using 200 points as the benchmark for max/trophy sized fish...it is NOT perfect but we used a combination of what is considered a trophy, state record size fish, and DFG info on max size.

Pete's proposal would do the following:

-Change abalone so that we would have 52 abalone of 200 points or more (ten inches or more)...not really max size if we have so many at 200 pts or more
-Change grass Rf so that we would never have had a grass rockfish of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 21 inches and Pete is proposing 22 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change greenling so that we would never have had a greenling of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 18.25 inches and Pete is proposing 19.05 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change Monkey point values so that three state records would not have been 200 point fish.
-Change Perch values so that current state record would not be a 200 point fish

3. I think the proposal is also elitist and discouraging to newer divers because it has a bias against species that are found more commonly in near shore habitats. Biasing the point system and labeling species as junk or trash fish is not something I support.

With all that said...I recognize that I myself am biased....I proposed the DOTY idea back in 2011 and worked hard to get it up and running with the help of fuzz, rick and the AOTY committee guys of that time.

If this is the direction that players want to see the game go I don't want to let my opinions hold people back...bottom line is that I am only one vote on the committee.

But I strongly encourage people to consider what kind of game DOTY has been for the past 4 yours, how much fun has been had by divers of all skill levels, and what kind of game it would become by supporting this proposal.

At the very least I propose continuing with DOTY rules as is for 2016 and allowing more time to review, discuss and consider this proposal over the course of the year.

Sincerely,

Jim

+1 leave as is for 2016.

Maybe consider fish point adjustments for 2017 if it's too late for 2016.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 09:33:36 AM by Cabeza de Martillo »
Pronounced in Spanish  ka·be·za de mar·t·yo
Translates to Hammerhead in English for my Gringo amigos.
....and yes that's me with a 6ft. green moray in the avatar.


bmb

  • Also, no, I don't know computer stuff other than how to be a dick online.
  • AOTY Committee
  • *
  • View Profile
  • Location: Livermoron
  • Date Registered: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 6444
While I have no stake in the DOTY rules, I've thought about the same for AOTY, with the conclusion that top 10 fish is better than top 20.  While its great to get people to push their limits to win, most newbie divers don't really stand a chance when they have to go after 20 different species.  They actually have a better chance to win with 10.  I do think that there should be an incentive to get 20 species or more species to push people to try new things - either some sort of plaque or prize (as well as the previously floated raffle tickets).  This is true for AOTY as well.


RacinRob

  • AOTY Committee
  • *
  • Wilderness Systems Pro Staff
  • View Profile
  • Location: Sheridan
  • Date Registered: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 7828
    My vote would be to leave it as 20, not that I would count here much. I do dive, but will never be able to compete with all of you that live closer to the coast. My thought is with 20 it will push me personally to work on getting better on how to find certain fish, where they hang out, depths etc. I at one time thought the opposite too. In AOTY we only get 1 rockfish, where in DOTY you get to pick and choose several.
      I think AOTY should also be all 20. It will make people work harder at learning new techniques etc to get the 20. More of an all around type of competition. I have felt that just 10 makes it much easier to place. No disrespect to the top guys since I know they work hard at most species we have. The last few years I have caught 15-16 species with quality size where the winners did not catch much more than 10. I have been top 3 a couple times, but with volume I would have possibly won.
http://21ten.com/Rob/10Day/       http://WildernessSystems.com  
http://ShastaTackle.com

Wilderness Systems Pro Staff                       Heroes on the Water Gear Collector
Adventure Technology Paddles Pro Staff         Shasta Tackle Pro Staff
2017 ARW Halibut 3rd Place
2017 Berryessa Salmon Slam MBF winner
2014 GS8 1st Place AOTD
2014 Trinidad Rockfish Wars 1st Place--- Teamed w/ATD
2014 AOTY 3rd Place-Again
2013 AOTY 3rd Place
2012 Berryessa Salmon Slam  1st Place
2012 Sonoma Slam 1st Place---Teamed w/ATD
2012 TRW 2 1st Place----Teamed w/ATD
2012 PIF Big Salmon Winner
2012 Fresh Kats Series Champion
2012-13-14 Team NCKA Kayak Wars 1st Place Team Overall


RottieOwner

  • Sand Dab
  • **
  • View Profile
  • Location: Palo Alto, CA
  • Date Registered: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 17
I guess on the NCKA board my screen name is RottieOwner, but my username on DOTY is StinkyPete. I finally got a break to check in on this, so I wanted to add a few thoughts as to why I'm proposing this stuff:

-Submitting 10 species instead of the current number we have (18) does two things: it prevents divers from shooting fish that they otherwise would have no interest in shooting, and also makes it a closer race since many people will do well for at least 5 or 6 of the species. This year, how many coppers did we have that were under 14" in December? People were just shooting teeny, tiny fish because they needed to squeeze out a few points. A 10 species submission will eliminate that and I think we'll end up with more quality, and less quantity. Besides, it doesn't prevent people from targeting a species since this point system is more even than previously, with small exceptions to the (6) biased species.

-Changing the point bias, for the most part, simply makes sense. Some species, like halibut, abalone, lingcod, cabezon, sheepshead and vermillion, should have a slight bias, as they are the species that most people target. Last I checked, halibut, abalone, lingcod and cabezon are near shore species. To me (and this is just an opinion), it is absolutely stupid that a 16" kelp rockfish has an equivalent point value to an 11" abalone, or a 19" perch.

Lastly, keep in mind that I'm not adding a bias, I'm simply changing the point bias. If you look at the historical scores, the fish that have a current, favorable bias are: Cabezon, kelp rockfish, halibut, lingcod, perch. With that in mind, it's not that dramatic of a change in point scale.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:32:56 AM by RottieOwner »


Jeremy

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Location: Redwood City, CA
  • Date Registered: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 481
Regarding the 10 vs 18/20 species: the way I see it, reducing the number of fish needed to be competitive has the possibility of INCREASING participation and opportunities for success.  If you look back over the past years, you notice that the top 5-10 guys place consistently in the top 5-10 spots.  Not to say that Jim, Kris, Adam, Matt, Charlie, Joe, Nelson, Sean, Rob, Peter etc aren't great divers, but changing to a top 10 system gives more opportunities to more divers.  Divers that don't have the ability to get to the depths to find a vermillion, or the time and resources to get a sheephead aren't penalized.  Plus, diver's aren't penalized for not shooting fish that shouldn't be shot.  There's no reason to push divers to shoot 12" coppers just to get the points.


bloodbath

  • Sea Lion
  • ****
  • Umi ikimasho!
  • View Profile PacificNalu Spearfishing
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Date Registered: Jun 2007
  • Posts: 2882
Too much to read but if you start changing shit you will probably notice a lot more folks not competing. This aint spearboard. :smt006

Nobody was complaining about perch upgrades until after the fact. Although I agree with Peter for a more serious competition,  DOTY is for fun right? Newbies included, right? The format opens the field for everyone to have a good time. Most of the points are from rockfish for Christ's sake. I vote to leave it the same. Fishmaster1 is counting on them perch upgrades :smt002
2011 Albion Open 1st place
2014 Lowrance Rockfish Classic 1st place


Fish Master1

  • If it bleeds I can kill it.
  • Sea Lion
  • ****
  • A-Hull Muggle
  • View Profile
  • Location: Prunedale California
  • Date Registered: Jan 2008
  • Posts: 9258
I got your perch hanging. :smt002.


Rick

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • View Profile
  • Location: Santa Clara
  • Date Registered: Sep 2009
  • Posts: 623
Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same. Or maybe have certain biases in species that occur in different parts of the state such that norcal and Monterey Bay balance out (i.e. bias abalone-north, and bias sheephead-MBay (or china-north and WSB-MBay  :smt007 ) as a pair in order to incentivize a central coast diver to dive Mendo, and vice versa).

Also, not too feasible/in the spirit of DOTY, but probably pretty cool to watch strategy-wise would be to allow only one entry per species (no upgrades). It would really force you to be selective, and if you thought a fish was garbage, well, you'd only have incentive to shoot one all year.


Quote
it prevents divers from shooting fish that they otherwise would have no interest in shooting

I think this is in part a reason why I haven't done too many of these competitions (DOTY, King of the Tritons, etc.) the past couple years. Plus, I think it's really fun to target the species that will skunk you more often than not, and I think that it really improves you as a diver (in terms of discipline, patterning fish, selectivity, etc.) just as much or more than trying to get as many different species as possible.
"Slick Rick the Ruler"


Rick

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • View Profile
  • Location: Santa Clara
  • Date Registered: Sep 2009
  • Posts: 623
Also, you could potentially look at the all-time max lengths ever entered and set those as the 200 point benchmarks if the goal is to deflate scores (the outcome would be kind of like AOTY, I'm guessing? There are far fewer 200+ point fish in AOTY).
"Slick Rick the Ruler"


nelson kwok

  • Salmon
  • ***
  • View Profile
  • Date Registered: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 120
Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.

My vote is for this the above.

Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)


 

anything