Venom in RockFish Spines

I recall discussing this a while back and no one seemed to have a good answer. Dave said he got poked and swelled up pretty bad.

I found this page that mentions blue rockfish have mildly venomous spines. I have no idea how accurate it is.

http://www.enature.com/fieldguide/showSpeciesSH.asp?curGroupID=3&shapeID=1000&curPageNum=13&recnum=FI0160

Maybe that is what caused the swelling?

Google "venomous spines rockfish", and you get a good bit of info.  Here's some clips...

http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/WWW/macsis/lists/M010170.htm
Rockfishes off California are difficult to identify because about 60 similar species occur there.  The characters given here should be used with caution.  Many, if not all species of Sebastes are venomous.  Poison glands are associated with some or all of the spines of the first dorsal, anal, and pelvic fins. The venom, although painful, is not dangerous except when it provokes an allergic reaction or where the injury becomes infected.

http://www.ci.santa-cruz.ca.us/pr/wharf/critters/critters2.html
With our extensive reef system throughout the West Cliff Drive offshore area of Santa Cruz, we have an amazing variety of rockfish. This whole Sebastes genus have two dorsal fins, with 12 spines and eight fin rays, and a ventral tail spine. The spines are venomous. If you get stuck with one, you will know it for quite some time, since the venom is very painful (not fatal). The quickest remedy is hot water.

Interesting that not all spines may be venomous.  May explain why one stick caused me to react, and another 1 week later didn't.

-- Dave

i have been stuck by a china or possibly a gopher rockfish ay pedro point and it really hurt for about 20 min.

China's do have a reputation for their venomy spines.  

Excellent info, Dave.  I too was wondering why some pokes were nasty and others I was like "what's the big deal?"

This has gotten bad--I'm actually longing for a venomy spine poke!!  

Sometimes it kind of stings.  There is plenty of sharp stuff on those fish, so some cuts and pokes may be from gill plates, ect, not spines.

Watch those stripers got it good a couple of times, not to mention some of the bullheads we use for bait.

-Brian

  I went out of Stillwater South yesterday and got a half limit of mostly olives, but one vermilion that I was the verge of sending back, but with its bulging eyes and all, and I could actually get a taco out of it, I kept.  About then it got its vengeance, poked me where the right ring finger meets the palm, hurt like an sob for about 15 mins, but then was just a annoyance.  Last night and today its swollen up half of my hand, and aches some, but I was able to do some  serious garden pruning with it.
  So I'm putting verms in the category that are pretty venomous, and I'm only touching them with lip grippers from now on - and only keeping the big ones!   I gave up on gophers a long time ago - they're never very big and have nasty stings.   
    I'll have to read the article in the post above and see if there's anything to do but wait it out.

With verms, I'm more worried about the spines on the outside of their gillplate and jaw. While they aren't particularly venem-ladden, those spines are very sharp and used as a self-defense mechanism of sorts--they puff up and stick out those spines, which will break off into your flesh and cause infection. So make sure to have a firm grip on the fish's lower jaw and be assertive w/the fish...don't let it roll or shake.

For the most part, just wait it out.  Washing the site, directly after the envenomation, with as hot of water as you can stand does help (tough on a kayak!), but is by no means a cure (works well for scorpion stings too - tested that dozens of times).  The general thought being that the heat is breaking down the venom proteins. Good theory.


In the paper "The Venom Apparatus of California Rockfishes (Family Scorpaenidae)" (Roche, Halstead, 1972) this topic is very well covered over 6 different species.  Of the six species, only two are capable of producing venom at EVERY spine. Eight other species, briefly mentioned, only carry one or two venomous spines. The paper also suggests that a puncture of 2mm depth would also be required to get a significant envenomation.

Effect of the venom is going to vary slightly from person to person, even sting to sting.  The most severe reactions includes cramps and fevers.

If you wanna know more, I can ask venom researcher Brian Greg Fry if he knows anything... I think most of his fish-related venom research was with stonefish (related) and various inverts likes snails and jellies...

Funny you mention that, SC. I caught a china on Sunday that had a vermilion (I'm assuming) spine stuck in its underside.

Coulda swore I got a pic of it...but I can't find it.

Cool info The Nothing! Thanks for that.

Yeah, I think Sackyak had a gillplate/jaw spine from a copper or verm that broke off in his finger and was stuck in there for quite a while.

Does anybody know if the venom is still active in dead fish? Frozen fish? A Chinese friend wants me to freeze a rockfish for him. He only wants it gutted, so I'm wondering if I need to clip the spines.

Freezing should kill the venom proteins, as will time.  How long it takes for the proteins to break down in a freshly killed fish is likely unknown.

I almost forgot to note that the venom/stinging apparatus of rockfish is a completely passive system. They cannot, at will, raise their dorsal fin and inject venom. As the spine punctures skin, the fishes own skin is pushed down over the spine.  As the skin is pushed down, the venom gland is compressed, releasing venom.  The further the spine pierces, the more (and deeper of course) venom is injected.  Imagine stepping on one! Ouch!! From what I understand, rockfish venom isn't as bad as a stonefish, or even a sculpin for that matter.

A good friend of mine is an authority on venomous fish.  He (Dr. Wm Leo Smith) was featured in the NY science times a couple years ago when he was still in grad school.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/science/22fish.html

Nothing particular to rockfish in that short article, but still interesting.

Brian

Well, I'm better informed with your helpful info, hopefully wiser too. Thanks.  Thinking about it, the fact that I was wearing gloves (Home Depot "Subcontractor" tight-fitting synthetic leather on the palms/underside of the fingers) might have contributed to the damage: while most of the time they protect well against getting snagged by hooks and spines and such, perhaps once a spine is pushed with enough force to penetrate the glove, it goes deeper into the flesh to inject the venom deeper and really clean out the venom duct.  That and the fact I didn't immediately bop the fish, trying to decide whether to release it, so it was squirming around a lot more than I usual.   It's probably too late, but I now know exactly what temp my hot water heater is set at! About 125 degrees is as hot as I can stand -and that's Baghdad's average high temp right about now.