NorCal Kayak Anglers

General => Fish Talk => Fish ID sub-forum => Topic started by: Clayman on March 11, 2014, 05:19:22 PM

Title: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 11, 2014, 05:19:22 PM
I'm reposting this from another thread on the CA Regulations board.

I caught this fish in October 2011 from a drift boat on the Trinity River, near Junction City.  I have a pretty good idea of what it is, but wanted to post it here to show the importance of knowing more than one way to differentiate among CA salmonids.  Most folks go by the "all black gums is a Chinook, black mouth with white gums at base of teeth is a coho, all white mouth is a steelhead" rule.  It's a reliable ID tool most of the time...until you run into fish like the one posted below.

What do you think it is?  And for what it's worth, I released the fish.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: matanaska on March 11, 2014, 05:53:04 PM
I guess Coho
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Tote on March 11, 2014, 05:58:11 PM
Looks like a brown on crack.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: RacinRob on March 11, 2014, 06:01:05 PM
Looks like the Coho pics I've seen from Oroville.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: crash on March 11, 2014, 06:02:22 PM
Looks like a brown on crack.

I said coastal cutthroat on steroids. It does look more trout than salmon to me, but I have not any idea what that thing is.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Report of the Month on March 11, 2014, 06:13:04 PM
Spots on the lower half of its cadual = one-spot fringehead?
Sweet fish, that much is clear!
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: krusty on March 11, 2014, 06:14:48 PM
Large spots on both the upper and lower tail: coho, brown trout
Spots on tail not small and in distinct rows: steelhead
Leading edge of anal fin is relatively short, when folded falls short of middle of fin: coho,steelhead
So I vote chinook salmon.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: wizz on March 11, 2014, 06:15:30 PM
Looks like a sea run brown to me. Ive actually caught those on all but 2 trips to the trinity.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Big Buoy on March 11, 2014, 06:36:39 PM
Looks like a sea run brown to me.

+1


Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: bmb on March 11, 2014, 07:54:48 PM
Same thing as I said in another thread, a female pinook.  She might have strayed from the Northwest where they are uncommon but not unheard of.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 11, 2014, 08:16:42 PM
It's a helluva strange-looking fish ain't it?  :smt044 I wasn't sure what I'd caught at first either.  First look at the gums showed the mouth to be almost completely white.  So then I fell back on some other ID tools, most of which Krusty used.  Those being:


Given that the river was full of dark Chinook at the time, I signed it off as a Chinook jack.  But I never thought about a pinook like bmb2.0 mentioned.  Some Internet research shows pinooks to only be found in the Great Lakes, which makes it extremely unlikely this was a pinook given the lack of pinks in the Trinity or CA in general (though I've heard of a few caught in this river).  The pictures of pinooks show fish that are very similar-looking to the fish I caught.  Maybe I should've posted this photo a couple years ago, because now I'm starting to re-think my ID!
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 08:18:47 PM
Large spots on both the upper and lower tail: coho, brown trout

I thought coho generally have spots on the upper lobe of the tail only ???

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 08:21:31 PM
It's a helluva strange-looking fish ain't it?  :smt044 I wasn't sure what I'd caught at first either.  First look at the gums showed the mouth to be almost completely white.  So then I fell back on some other ID tools, most of which Krusty used.  Those being:

  • Anal fin is a lot wider than it is long, a Pacific salmon trait.  That eliminated any kind of trout, including brown trout.
  • Spots on both lobes of the caudal fin.  This made it unlikely the fish was a coho.

Given that the river was full of dark Chinook at the time, I signed it off as a Chinook jack.  But I never thought about a pinook like bmb2.0 mentioned.  Some Internet research shows pinooks to only be found in the Great Lakes, which makes it extremely unlikely this was a pinook given the lack of pinks in the Trinity or CA in general (though I've heard of a few caught in this river).  The pictures of pinooks show fish that are very similar-looking to the fish I caught.  Maybe I should've posted this photo a couple years ago, because now I'm starting to re-think my ID!

But both Pinks and Chinook have black in the mouth.  Why would a hybrid have white?

Those face spots really have me thinking Atlantic, because it just doesn't look like a brown to me.

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: rockfish on March 11, 2014, 08:36:46 PM
I stick with the searun brown ID from the other thread.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 08:38:39 PM
I stick with the searun brown ID from the other thread.

Yeah, I just looked at it again.  I could probably get on board with Brown too.

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Mr.Matt on March 11, 2014, 08:40:06 PM
Looks like a sea run brown.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 11, 2014, 08:45:25 PM
It's a helluva strange-looking fish ain't it?  :smt044 I wasn't sure what I'd caught at first either.  First look at the gums showed the mouth to be almost completely white.  So then I fell back on some other ID tools, most of which Krusty used.  Those being:

  • Anal fin is a lot wider than it is long, a Pacific salmon trait.  That eliminated any kind of trout, including brown trout.
  • Spots on both lobes of the caudal fin.  This made it unlikely the fish was a coho.

Given that the river was full of dark Chinook at the time, I signed it off as a Chinook jack.  But I never thought about a pinook like bmb2.0 mentioned.  Some Internet research shows pinooks to only be found in the Great Lakes, which makes it extremely unlikely this was a pinook given the lack of pinks in the Trinity or CA in general (though I've heard of a few caught in this river).  The pictures of pinooks show fish that are very similar-looking to the fish I caught.  Maybe I should've posted this photo a couple years ago, because now I'm starting to re-think my ID!

But both Pinks and Chinook have black in the mouth.  Why would a hybrid have both?

Those face spots really have me thinking Atlantic, because it just doesn't look like a brown to me.

-Allen
I've seen the black gums fade a lot in Chinook that've been in the river a while.  Not on all of them, but enough of them to make it noticeable.  Check out a couple pics of the gums of these Chinook I caught the same year from the Trinity.  But like you said Allen, the spotting on the fish in question is noticeably "off" from what you see on most Chinook.  I didn't really consider Atlantics since they're so darn rare in CA, and though I'm not too familiar with Atlantics, the pictures I see of them usually show the fish with very roundish spots.  Chinook (and pinks) tend to have those big, blotchy spots like the fish in the net.  This fish is spottier than most Chinook I've seen though.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 08:51:14 PM
Even those latest pics are darker than white (I guess that means grey!).  The original pic is more white than not (less than grey!).  Do you recall what color the tongue was?

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Derrick A2H on March 11, 2014, 08:54:40 PM
Ill call steel head on this just because it has that pink sheen in the face that browns wouldnt
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 08:55:13 PM
And the tail spots are mildy pink like, but the rest of the body doesn't resemble anything pink to me.  The body and head shape are just wrong and the scales are too big.  Never mind that the coloring is way off.

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 11, 2014, 08:56:57 PM
As for a brown trout, I really think the width of the anal fin says it's not a trout.  A trout's anal fin is about as wide as it is long.  This fish's anal fin is much wider than long, indicating to me it's a Pacific salmon.

Upon further research, it appears Atlantic salmon have anal fins that are similar to a trout's, making the fish less likely of being an Atlantic.

Even those latest pics are darker than white (I guess that means grey!).  The original pic is more white than not (less than grey!).  Do you recall what color the tongue was?

-Allen
Yeah, but they're not dark black like you see in a fresh ocean-caught Chinook.  And these are just from the handful of salmon I've caught in the Trinity when I had a decent camera.  Indicating to me that there's likely a lot of variation in the general population if I'm seeing this much variation in my tiny sample size.  So what's to say a Chinook might develop a near-white mouth as its body digests itself?  It's been a few years, but I recall the entire mouth being pretty white with maybe a hint of grey.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
As for a brown trout, I really think the width of the anal fin says it's not a trout.  A trout's anal fin is about as wide as it is long.  This fish's anal fin is much wider than long, indicating to me it's a Pacific salmon.

Upon further research, it appears Atlantic salmon have anal fins that are similar to a trout's, making the fish less likely of being an Atlantic.

Even those latest pics are darker than white (I guess that means grey!).  The original pic is more white than not (less than grey!).  Do you recall what color the tongue was?

-Allen
Yeah, but they're not dark black like you see in a fresh ocean-caught Chinook.  And these are just from the handful of salmon I've caught in the Trinity when I had a decent camera.  Indicating to me that there's likely a lot of variation in the general population if I'm seeing this much variation in my tiny sample size.  So what's to say a Chinook might develop a near-white mouth as its body digests itself?  It's been a few years, but I recall the entire mouth being pretty white with maybe a hint of grey.

Dude, aren't you the fish bio?  You tell us what it is!!!   :smt006

-Allen
Title: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Uminchu Naoaki on March 11, 2014, 09:02:16 PM
Yeah, the white gums threw me off a little but I've seen some Chinook with lost color mouth in the carcass survey. The large spots & spots on the tail top to bottom make me think that it's Chinook.
But the white on the edge of the pelvic fin is just from the light?
Brown has rounder spots with a halo.
Hard to see from the pic but caudal fin are more forked like salmon.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: rockfish on March 11, 2014, 09:05:23 PM
I say gill it and eat it like the SSS rule says, we dont need no damn mutant fish in the T!!!   :smt044 :smt044
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: krusty on March 11, 2014, 09:07:08 PM
Large spots on both the upper and lower tail: coho, brown trout

I thought coho generally have spots on the upper lobe of the tail only ???

-Allen

That is why I crossed coho off as a possible fish.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: krusty on March 11, 2014, 09:12:36 PM
But both Pinks and Chinook have black in the mouth.  Why would a hybrid have white?

Those face spots really have me thinking Atlantic, because it just doesn't look like a brown to me.

-Allen

Do salmon hybridize?
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 09:13:12 PM
Large spots on both the upper and lower tail: coho, brown trout

I thought coho generally have spots on the upper lobe of the tail only ???

-Allen

That is why I crossed coho off as a possible fish.


Hah!  I didn't even see the crossout.  And I've been thinking about those tail spots too.  Not consistent with brown.  Not entirely consistent with Atlantic too, but some strains of Atlantic have tail spotting.

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 09:23:30 PM
Look familiar?

(http://www.fishwithjd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Pinook-Salmon.jpg)

Suspected pinook from the Buskin river in Alaska.

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 11, 2014, 09:28:01 PM
Dude, aren't you the fish bio?  You tell us what it is!!!   :smt006

-Allen
I think it's a Chinook, but it's always good to get second opinions because this remains the strangest-looking Chinook I've ever caught.

All these different answers of Chinook, coho, brown trout, Atlantic salmon, and steelhead tells me a warden might have trouble IDing a fish like this in the field.  Which reiterates the need to know more than one way to identify a Chinook from other similar-looking fish  :smt001.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 11, 2014, 09:32:30 PM
Look familiar?

(http://www.fishwithjd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Pinook-Salmon.jpg)

Suspected pinook from the Buskin river in Alaska.

-Allen
It's uncanny for sure!  But man, I keep thinking of "what are the odds of a pinook showing up on the West Coast, let alone the Trinity River?" From what I've read on the Internet, pinooks are only found in the Great Lakes region.  Did you find something that says they're found in the Pacific?  Then add to the fact that there isn't exactly a "robust" population of pink salmon anywhere in CA or southern Oregon.  The odds man...
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: rockfish on March 11, 2014, 09:34:07 PM
That pinook looks like a few fish I have released on the American over the years :(
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: bmb on March 11, 2014, 09:45:27 PM
I agree with you Chris on the odds.  The chances of it happening are slim that's for dang sure. But anything is possible.  A school of kings roam north to the coast of Washington and mix up with some other kings. A pinook gets mixed in, they flow south and stage off the Klamath mouth and just go up. The odds of that happening are slim at best. The odds of you catching one is even worse. You should have bought a lottery ticket.

The only other thought I would have is possibly a brown x Atlantic cross, but that seems even less likely. And like you said, the anal fin doesn't match a trout.

I did some research and they said that pinooks are caught in the PAC NW but people just don't talk about them a lot.  Was the year you caught that fish a pink year by chance? Of so I'd feel more confident. If not, unlikely but still possible.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 11, 2014, 09:48:55 PM
I did some research and they said that pinooks are caught in the PAC NW but people just don't talk about them a lot.  Was the year you caught that fish a pink year by chance? Of so I'd feel more confident. If not, unlikely but still possible.

Of course a pinook may not stick to the 2 year cycles.  That one could be a 1 year pinook "jack".

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: bmb on March 11, 2014, 09:56:57 PM
Could be. And also if its a pinook it might choose to follow a king cycle, 3, 4 or 5 year!

I say that since I know zero about pinook biology. It doesn't seem like there's been much research on it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: bmb on March 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What would have helped (other than doing a mtDNA analysis) would be knowing how old the fish is and determining whether there was a big pink run the year of fertilization.  A large pink run with a few female Chinook laying eggs could result in a cross. The one abstract I read said that pinooks are supposedly asymmetrical in that they take more traits of Chinook than pink, and that they are generally result of a maternal Chinook and paternal pink, which makes some sense to me if you're talking about a huge run of humpies.  I've also seen pics of male pinooks (chumpies) which look....um...challenged.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: bmb on March 11, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
By the way all of my knowledge of salmon biology I learned from an episode of futurama where fry and leela were salmon.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: rockfish on March 11, 2014, 10:22:46 PM
OK, well I change my ID.  I just got off the phone with ATD and he said without a pause or hesitation that he thinks Chinook.  Since he has seen many thousands of these from hatchery to grave I'll go with him.  But we agreed that its best to release because it only takes one warden looking at the gums to write a ticket and he (ATD) is not always available for deposition to help in court...
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: trianglelaguna on March 12, 2014, 07:07:00 AM
I have not trout fished in years but the first thing I saw was a "brown trout that was going into a mating morph"

I agree

    Quote from Wizz

Looks like a sea run brown to me. Ive actually caught those on all but 2 trips to the trinity.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 12, 2014, 07:42:02 AM
Internet research (Internet is so awesome  :smt004) shows the strongest runs of pinks in Washington state run in odd-numbered years.  This fish was caught in 2011, so it was indeed a year for returning pink salmon.  As far as I'm aware, there is very little variation in the life history of pinks--most fish immediately outmigrate to sea after emergence and will return two years later.  There are no such things as pink "jacks" or pinks older than 2 years old, so there's no genetic mingling among runs (not counting strays).  That's why odd-numbered years in Washington state show strong runs that don't contribute to the runs of even-numbered years.

A 1-year old pinook "jack" is highly unlikely.  The only scenario I could see this occurring is if the fish ignored its immediate urge to outmigrate from the river like a pink salmon would, and remained in the river for one year to develop into a precocious male parr, or "mini jack".  This has been observed in Chinook.  But "mini jacks", given that they remain in the river their entire life and are only a year old, are very small dudes.  There's no way they could grow to the size of the fish in question within one year.

As for a brown trout: again, I really think the anal fin rules it out.  Anal fins that are a lot wider than long are found on Pacific salmon.  Trout have anal fins that are about as wide as they are long.  Unless someone digs up a photo of a brown trout with a really wide, short anal fin, then I won't ignore this trait.  I've caught a fair number of brown trout from the Trinity.  None of them looked like the fish in question.  Though I can't say for sure whether the browns were actually "sea run" or not.

By the way all of my knowledge of salmon biology I learned from an episode of futurama where fry and leela were salmon.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


I need to see that episode  :smt003.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: polepole on March 12, 2014, 07:46:45 AM
As far as I'm aware, there is very little variation in the life history of pinks--most fish immediately outmigrate to sea after emergence and will return two years later. 

Useless fact of the day alert.  Pinks are an odd bunch.  The genetic differences between even and odd year fish in WA are more than the genetic differences between same year fish in SE AK vs. WA.  Seems there is more genetic intermingling across distance rather than time.

-Allen
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: sharky on March 12, 2014, 08:03:57 AM
How did it taste? That's how I distinguish between a steelhead and a salmon.

By the way, this is a joke.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 12, 2014, 08:49:40 AM
As far as I'm aware, there is very little variation in the life history of pinks--most fish immediately outmigrate to sea after emergence and will return two years later. 

Useless fact of the day alert.  Pinks are an odd bunch.  The genetic differences between even and odd year fish in WA are more than the genetic differences between same year fish in SE AK vs. WA.  Seems there is more genetic intermingling across distance rather than time.

-Allen
They really are a fascinating abberation among Pacific salmon.  While you see a lot of variation in life histories of most Pacific salmon (years spent in FW as juveniles, years spent in ocean, age at spawning, different run timings, etc.), pinks seem to have the most "rigid" life history of all of them, opting to use a short life span and sheer numbers to survive as a species.  Ironically, they seem to be doing the best of all salmon, with talk of there being "too many pinks" in the ocean waters of the PNW.  They're competing for resources with other salmon species, and since they're considered an "inferior" salmon for the table, do not command a high market price like Chinook or sockeye.

How did it taste? That's how I distinguish between a steelhead and a salmon.

By the way, this is a joke.
You'd have to pay me to eat that beast  :smt044.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: fisheducator on March 12, 2014, 09:32:42 AM
" It's a fish !!!"  :smt044, a nice one at that. Interesting read also.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: SmokeOnTheWater on March 12, 2014, 11:43:53 AM
Interesting fish for sure.  I recall seeing a similar thread a while back on the sniffer I think and they concluded it was a chinook as well.

In any case, this thread has been extremely educational for me.  Thanks!
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Sin Coast on March 12, 2014, 12:14:03 PM
Ooooo I just had another theory to add to our list...could it have washed down from Lewiston? Did it spill in 2010/11?
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Derrick A2H on March 12, 2014, 12:16:27 PM
Lol! Another wrench in the gears!
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Clayman on March 12, 2014, 12:24:59 PM
Ooooo I just had another theory to add to our list...could it have washed down from Lewiston? Did it spill in 2010/11?
:smt044

Winter of 2010-11 was a really big water year, so it's possible!  What lives in Lewiston anyway?
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Bushy on March 12, 2014, 12:31:06 PM
So what the hell is a "Pinook?"  Is it a Filipino Salmonid?  Like a Pinoy chinook?  Or is it a very small Eskimo fish, like a "Pinner Nanook?"  :sign17::sign18:


Bouche
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: crash on March 12, 2014, 12:33:17 PM
At least the portmanteau went with pinook. I can think of a less PC one with a chinook and a pink.
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: rockfish on March 12, 2014, 02:03:25 PM
At least the portmanteau went with pinook. I can think of a less PC one with a chinook and a pink.

I kinda like the chinink ;)
Title: Re: It's a ____ salmon! Or...?
Post by: Uminchu Naoaki on March 14, 2014, 04:58:07 PM
How about this one!?!?!?