So, Guns and fishing, concealed carry!?!?!?! Legal? You bet!!! Read on...

According to a study by the American Journal of Science:
""people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.""

Of course, any sort of study like this is incomplete and flawed. Unless you conducted an actual study where half of the participants volunteered to be armed while the other half unarmed. For a period of like 10yrs. And the article about the study acknowledges this by stating:
""While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot""
 

Once an assailant is shot he is now the victim 

Excellent point Rob

Different study from the same year (2009)

And yeah, the "Scientific" study could be counting bad guys who got shot, yeah?


https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

Monday, 29 September 2008 00:00 Written by Administrator
Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. [1] This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. [2]

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.[4]

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.[5]

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."[7]

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year. [8] Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."
B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home. [9] * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.[11]

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."[12]

* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state. [13] FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. [14]

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport. [15]
C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole. [16]

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed. [17]

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%. [18] Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation. [19]

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful. [20] Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun." [21]

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."[22] * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." [23]

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns . Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.

Someone needs more practice.

Different study from the same year (2009)

And yeah, the "Scientific" study could be counting bad guys who got shot, yeah?


https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

Monday, 29 September 2008 00:00 Written by Administrator
Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. [1] This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. [2]

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.[4]

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.[5]

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."[7]

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year. [8] Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."
B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home. [9] * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.[11]

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."[12]

* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state. [13] FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. [14]

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport. [15]
C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole. [16]

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed. [17]

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%. [18] Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation. [19]

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful. [20] Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun." [21]

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."[22] * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." [23]

Most of the info for this comes from Gary Kleck, John Lott, and Don Kates, which illustrates one of the main problems in trying to get any good, solid empirical data as to wether gun ownership reduces crime: Most studies are funded or executed with a clear bias, not peer reviewed, or feature poor methodology.

Add to that every example given by one side, the other side can offer an equally compelling example. For example the 1987 Florida RTC law is cited above as reducing crime, but a study done in 2003 that took a more long term look at crime rates in florida found no statistical evidence that showed the RTC law either increased or decreased the rates. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9133.2003.tb00002.x/abstract) this is my take. Guns (control or ownership) have little effect on crime. Demographics, wealth disparities, education all seem much larger factors.

It seems to me that Donald Braman — associate professor at George Washington University Law School — and Dan Kahan — professor at Yale Law School — put it best in 2006:

"For one segment of American society, guns symbolize honor, human mastery over nature, and individual self-sufficiency. By opposing gun control, individuals affirm the value of these meanings and the vision of the good society that they construct. For another segment of American society, however, guns connote something else: the perpetuation of illicit social hierarchies, the elevation of force over reason, and the expression of collective indifference to the well-being of strangers. These individuals instinctively support gun control as a means of repudiating these significations and of promoting an alternative vision of the good society that features equality, social solidarity, and civilized nonagression.

These competing cultural visions, we will argue, are what drive the gun control debate. They are what dispose individuals to accept certain empirically grounded public-safety arguments and to reject others. Indeed, the meanings that guns and gun control express are sufficient to justify most individuals’ positions on gun control independently of their beliefs about guns and safety. It follows that the only meaningful gun control debate is one that explicitly addresses whether and how the underlying cultural visions at stake should be embodied in American law."

I never fish alone without carrying. Especially if I know I'm coming off the water near dark. Since my regular spot is the port, it just seems like due-f'ing-diligence to be able to protect yourself with all the easy to sell valuable loot hanging off my boat.

Luckily I am licensed to do so, so I don't need to worry about unloading during transport and nuanced interpretations. Night fishing is one of the biggest reasons I got my CCW and to this day one of the only times I actually use it.

It seems to me that Donald Braman — associate professor at George Washington University Law School — and Dan Kahan — professor at Yale Law School — put it best in 2006:

"For one segment of American society, guns symbolize honor, human mastery over nature, and individual self-sufficiency. By opposing gun control, individuals affirm the value of these meanings and the vision of the good society that they construct. For another segment of American society, however, guns connote something else: the perpetuation of illicit social hierarchies, the elevation of force over reason, and the expression of collective indifference to the well-being of strangers. These individuals instinctively support gun control as a means of repudiating these significations and of promoting an alternative vision of the good society that features equality, social solidarity, and civilized nonagression.

yeah OK that was a 2-minute research project on my part.

Essentially the above quote leads to "when challenged we retreat to our religion, guns, and banjo music?"

haha  I don't really care that much (beyond the stifling gov't control we already suffer from.) I have a gun it is very small and I have never shown it to anyone outside my garage.  But having it in my pocket at 4am in the woods makes me feel better.  And I like YOU Wizz!

and I kinda like banjo music, sometimes too...

Bushy

Thank you Ron, for posting this! I for one may start carrying. As a woman OTW I would hope I would never have to use it...but I am prepared if need be. In fact, I was just out doing some target practice the other weekend.

Out where we live, it would take 9 minutes for law enforcement to arrive. I'm not waiting that long if a criminal decides to break in. I'm also betting that I know how to use a gun better than the local criminal.

As far as gun control...all it does is put controls on law abiding citizens. Criminals don't give a rip about gun laws and have no interest in following them (to think otherwise is silly).

Just my two cents.
-Cherie

It seems to me that Donald Braman — associate professor at George Washington University Law School — and Dan Kahan — professor at Yale Law School — put it best in 2006:

"For one segment of American society, guns symbolize honor, human mastery over nature, and individual self-sufficiency. By opposing gun control, individuals affirm the value of these meanings and the vision of the good society that they construct. For another segment of American society, however, guns connote something else: the perpetuation of illicit social hierarchies, the elevation of force over reason, and the expression of collective indifference to the well-being of strangers. These individuals instinctively support gun control as a means of repudiating these significations and of promoting an alternative vision of the good society that features equality, social solidarity, and civilized nonagression.

yeah OK that was a 2-minute research project on my part.

Essentially the above quote leads to "when challenged we retreat to our religion, guns, and banjo music?"

haha  I don't really care that much (beyond the stifling gov't control we already suffer from.) I have a gun it is very small and I have never shown it to anyone outside my garage.  But having it in my pocket at 4am in the woods makes me feel better.  And I like YOU Wizz!

and I kinda like banjo music, sometimes too...

Bushy

I loved hee haw when I was a kid

"Once an assailant is shot he is now the victim"

I'll take that consequence.   Better than me being the victim.  Too young to die, too old to get my ass kicked.  That's why I carry.

"Once an assailant is shot he is now the victim"

I'll take that consequence.   Better than me being the victim.  Too young to die, too old to get my ass kicked.  That's why I carry.

That's the thing right there.... I don't want to fight fist to cuff anymore... I don't want to kill anyone with a gun... I don't want to be in the place where I am more dangerous then brandishing or shooting someone. I HIT REALLY HARD... PEOPLE DIE IN FIGHTS... TOUGH GUYS DON"T THINK IT THREW... DRUNKS/THIEVES/DRUGGIES don't stop 'cause they are afraid of you... GUN=stop= run away All the studies Wizz, won't change that. Statistics don't lie. When common folk are armed the criminals either come at you with a gun right off and you give them the cash, or they pick an unarmed victim... I've done so much more damage without a gun. Everyone can decide for themselves how they want to live. Clive Bundy decided not to be a victim and become another Ruby ridge. I choose NOT to give another power over me and my family. For women, Cash is the least thing that can be taken... Unless you are placed in a bad position and have to make choices of life and death, or worse, all the talk won't help you. A gun can turn or end the bad situation....

"Once an assailant is shot he is now the victim"

I'll take that consequence.   Better than me being the victim.  Too young to die, too old to get my ass kicked.  That's why I carry.

That's the thing right there.... I don't want to fight fist to cuff anymore... I don't want to kill anyone with a gun... I don't want to be in the place where I am more dangerous then brandishing or shooting someone. I HIT REALLY HARD... PEOPLE DIE IN FIGHTS... TOUGH GUYS DON"T THINK IT THREW... DRUNKS/THIEVES/DRUGGIES don't stop 'cause they are afraid of you... GUN=stop= run away All the studies Wizz, won't change that. Statistics don't lie. When common folk are armed the criminals either come at you with a gun right off and you give them the cash, or they pick an unarmed victim... I've done so much more damage without a gun. Everyone can decide for themselves how they want to live. Clive Bundy decided not to be a victim and become another Ruby ridge. I choose NOT to give another power over me and my family. For women, Cash is the least thing that can be taken... Unless you are placed in a bad position and have to make choices of life and death, or worse, all the talk won't help you. A gun can turn or end the bad situation....

Easy now, Im not calling anyone out or taking sides. If carrying makes you feel safer for whatever reasons you have than by all means carry away. All Im saying is lets be reasonable and realistic when it comes to empirical evidence and not overstate the case.  What am I thinking, we are talking about guns here. Reason or rationality is not allowed. Hell, Id carry in the Alaska bush for sure.

Stockton- alaska.... Alaska's safer... Animals are predictable 

Stockton- alaska.... Alaska's safer... Animals are predictable 

Which is exactly why I don't like to hang out/fish with people who carry. There are a few people who I trust with a loaded weapon, but I have seen otherwise reasonable people doing really stupid shit when they have a gun on their person.

I have never been in a situation where the presence of a gun in our group made me feel safer.  I have been in several situations where the guy with the gun in our group was a liability.

 Yo Ron you got to promise if you ever do a drift down the Salinas river during duck season to have a go pro going AT ALL TIMES! We want to see the gunfight at the OK canal!