Preaching the PFD message ...

I'm just mad cause Allens thread has more views than mine ..Stoopid
Allen

   

This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem.  First, you assume someone is going to die.  Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.

-Allen

I don't think people assume someone will die going out.

I limit suggesting safety to those who are curious and ask or when they have kids they are putting in a dangerous situation. 

Over the past couple weeks I talked to a family who were taking their kids on the ocean in a small aluminum boat.  They at least had life vests on so I gave them some navigation tips because they were visiting and asked. 

I told a mother that her children were playing in the surf where there was a rip tide and that it could pull them out in a blink of an eye. 

I even mentioned to a tourist that was walking on the cliffs that there are such things as sneaker waves and people have died from unexpected waves and falling off the cliffs. 

I wasn't being the safety police and only felt like they may have just not known the dangers. 

Then I meet an older kayaker who is going out on his own and saw a life vest so figured he's got this.  I asked if he was going out on his own and he said yes.  Didn't mention safety but did say if he got into any trouble to call on the radio and I would come and help.  Instead of a thank you he said I have been doing this forever and never had a problem. 

Now that may be true, but knowing the risks I still occasionally dive or fish solo.  Not the best idea but if someone saw me going out alone and said hey we will have our radios on if you have a problem I would have asked what channel and thanked them for taking the time to talk to me. 

By the way no one has ever done this for me. 

I personally know a few people who have died on or in the ocean, one that was brought back to life and others who have had kayak or boat problems out there.  I have almost been hit by boats and whales have almost knocked me out of my kayak. 

It doesn't matter how good of a swimmer you are if you hit your head or have a medical emergency.  99 percent of the problems will not result in death. If you are the 1 percent that could have been saved because of a life jacket or some safety advice then that just sucks and that's why people take the time to say something. 

I watched my mom suffer for years and never really recover from a loss at sea.  Miserable to watch and may have been preventable.  No way to know since they found his body a week later and there were no witnesses to the accident. 

Don't knock advice from genuinely caring individuals.  Doing so may only make them be quiet when saying something could have saved a life.  If you don't like the advice just smile and say wish me luck out there. 

Sometimes the safety nazis (especially the pfd police) get on my nerves too. The message is often delivered poorly and without much deliberation.
But I also realize it's their choice & right to browbeat folks who don't wear pfds...just like it's the choice & right of each individual to NOT wear a pfd. This only applies to adults though...children are not always able to make that choice--and should always wear a pfd.
That said, I always wear a pfd while kayaking in the ocean. Even though I am an excellent swimmer. I wear it because shit happens--seisures, strokes, heart attacks, vertigo, leg cramps, explosive diarrhea, etc. There's a chance one might survive such an unplanned medical event if they're wearing a proper fitting pfd.

This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem.  First, you assume someone is going to die.  Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.

-Allen

I don't think people assume someone will die going out.

I limit suggesting safety to those who are curious and ask or when they have kids they are putting in a dangerous situation. 

Over the past couple weeks I talked to a family who were taking their kids on the ocean in a small aluminum boat.  They at least had life vests on so I gave them some navigation tips because they were visiting and asked. 

I told a mother that her children were playing in the surf where there was a rip tide and that it could pull them out in a blink of an eye. 

I even mentioned to a tourist that was walking on the cliffs that there are such things as sneaker waves and people have died from unexpected waves and falling off the cliffs. 

I wasn't being the safety police and only felt like they may have just not known the dangers. 

Then I meet an older kayaker who is going out on his own and saw a life vest so figured he's got this.  I asked if he was going out on his own and he said yes.  Didn't mention safety but did say if he got into any trouble to call on the radio and I would come and help.  Instead of a thank you he said I have been doing this forever and never had a problem. 

Now that may be true, but knowing the risks I still occasionally dive or fish solo.  Not the best idea but if someone saw me going out alone and said hey we will have our radios on if you have a problem I would have asked what channel and thanked them for taking the time to talk to me. 

By the way no one has ever done this for me. 

I personally know a few people who have died on or in the ocean, one that was brought back to life and others who have had kayak or boat problems out there.  I have almost been hit by boats and whales have almost knocked me out of my kayak. 

It doesn't matter how good of a swimmer you are if you hit your head or have a medical emergency.  99 percent of the problems will not result in death. If you are the 1 percent that could have been saved because of a life jacket or some safety advice then that just sucks and that's why people take the time to say something. 

I watched my mom suffer for years and never really recover from a loss at sea.  Miserable to watch and may have been preventable.  No way to know since they found his body a week later and there were no witnesses to the accident. 

Don't knock advice from genuinely caring individuals.  Doing so may only make them be quiet when saying something could have saved a life.  If you don't like the advice just smile and say wish me luck out there.

+1

I also know from personal experience, even if you ask for help, you can't count on anybody. I don't really care who does or doesn't wear a PFD. All I know is I wear one, and I think everybody SHOULD wear one.

Bottom line, I wear one for the people with me, my family, and the responders that  (god forbid) might be looking for me.

I am with Weimarian on this.

I am relatively in-experienced at kayaking.
I wear one for my wife. I could not bear the thought of her suffering a loss because I was not wearing one.

My experience at racing taught me to be proactive with safety.
When you are upside down and on fire, it is too late...

And as for stirring the shit up, when I see someone not wearing a pfd, I think about weeding out the shallow end of the gene pool. 

Because we are having a discussion? I thought that was the point of this lol. My brain just exploded:light

I don't get it.  However you look at it, you said "but if I keep it to myself", but you didn't.  Perhaps there are better ways to get the message across without calling it "death by stupidity".

-Allen

And as for stirring the shit up, when I see someone not wearing a pfd, I think about weeding out the shallow end of the gene pool. 

There are times that I have consciously chosen not to wear a PFD.  What are you saying about me?  It's this attitude that gets me.

If someone doesn't wear one without conscious knowledge, does that make them stupid or lacking in strong genes?  No.  It makes them uneducated.  How about we choose to educate instead of insult?

-Allen

Because we are having a discussion? I thought that was the point of this lol. My brain just exploded:light

I don't get it.  However you look at it, you said "but if I keep it to myself", but you didn't.  Perhaps there are better ways to get the message across without calling it "death by stupidity".

-Allen

Perhaps there is. I'm sorry if you took offence to it, but I DO think it is stupid. I don't think less of you or whomever we are talking about because of it though. My point was that if I see someone without a PFD, I would never say anything to them because that is a personal choice. I think it is the wrong choice, but it is theirs to make, not mine. the only reason I mentioned it here is because you started a topic about it. I  wouldn't go out of my way to start shaming people though.

Because we are having a discussion? I thought that was the point of this lol. My brain just exploded:light

I don't get it.  However you look at it, you said "but if I keep it to myself", but you didn't.  Perhaps there are better ways to get the message across without calling it "death by stupidity".

-Allen

Perhaps there is. I'm sorry if you took offence to it, but I DO think it is stupid. I don't think less of you or whomever we are talking about because of it though. My point was that if I see someone without a PFD, I would never say anything to them because that is a personal choice. I think it is the wrong choice, but it is theirs to make, not mine. the only reason I mentioned it here is because you started a topic about it. I  wouldn't go out of my way to start shaming people though.

No offense taken MF.  I understand what you are saying.

-Allen

 

And as for stirring the shit up, when I see someone not wearing a pfd, I think about weeding out the shallow end of the gene pool. 

There are times that I have consciously chosen not to wear a PFD.  What are you saying about me?  It's this attitude that gets me.

If someone doesn't wear one without conscious knowledge, does that make them stupid or lacking in strong genes?  No.  It makes them uneducated.  How about we choose to educate instead of insult?

-Allen

I was thinking about the situation, not the person.
Even good people make bad decisions.

I did mean that to be taken in a lighthearted manor, sorry if it was not taken that way.

I dont doubt anyone from our community here in NCKA their ability to scope their own capacity. We all educate ourselves into safety first. I will agree with you to some extent nobody knows your own comfort zones other than your self. But, you have to consider others usually under estimate and overly confident. I am in total agreement that educating people is far better choice. However, we've seen how many lives has been taken due to not wearing PFD not just in salt but in fresh as well. What do you think would have happen if someone preaches PFD to those who perished? I dont like telling people what to do, but when the risk are too high, I'd rather be a preacher than a by stander. If you use my Bike "I WILL TELL YOU" wear a helmet, if you hop into my car "I WILL TELL YOU" to put your seat belt. If you kayak with me (not just using my kayak) "I WILL TELL YOU" to have PFD and wear it! Imagine how it feels if someone perish (not assuming, it already happens) because you held from preaching about PFD.

I said something to a kayaker the other day. I asked, do you have a pfd? I said the water is very cold and the lake is big enough that I couldn't swim to shore . I left it at that. Bringing it to their attention seems a reasonable thing to do.

I dont doubt anyone from our community here in NCKA their ability to scope their own capacity. We all educate ourselves into safety first. I will agree with you to some extent nobody knows your own comfort zones other than your self. But, you have to consider others usually under estimate and overly confident

You're going to get me in trouble Darius.  I have no doubt that many people here have no idea.  There are just too many newbies for that not to be the case.  I do not agree that others under estimate and are overly confident.  Some may, but it is more human nature to be cautious of the unknown.  We've all been the newbie on the water.  We all know the feeling.  I was scared shitless the first few times on the ocean.

I am in total agreement that educating people is far better choice. However, we've seen how many lives has been taken due to not wearing PFD not just in salt but in fresh as well. What do you think would have happen if someone preaches PFD to those who perished? I dont like telling people what to do, but when the risk are too high, I'd rather be a preacher than a by stander. If you use my Bike "I WILL TELL YOU" wear a helmet, if you hop into my car "I WILL TELL YOU" to put your seat belt. If you kayak with me (not just using my kayak) "I WILL TELL YOU" to have PFD and wear it! Imagine how it feels if someone perish (not assuming, it already happens) because you held from preaching about PFD.

Risks too high?  Quantify please.  Rockfish posted the following stats to fb.

based on statistics from the ACA, in 2013 there were roughly 13 million kayakers enjoying the sport, of which 54 died while kayaking

That's roughly 1:240,000 people dying.  Normalize to kayaker days and the number of deaths per trip is even less.  Look at the 1 year mortality odds of other "common" occurances ... http://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/mortality-risk

Fall on and from stairs and steps ... 1:139,544 ... Perhaps we should all don full body armor when we take the stairs?
Drowning and submersion while in or falling into swimming pool ... 1:454,860 ... perhaps everyone needs to wear a PFD to the pool?

BTW Darius, please don't ever take the stairs when I'm around.

-Allen

As far as I can tell, rock climbing has similar (close enough to argue) death rates to kayaking. Yet Alex Honnold's recent free solo of El Capitan was more idolized than condemned. Why isn't there a similar "campaign" in the rock climbing world to require ropes and protection?

-Allen