NorCal Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing Zone => Kayak Fly Fishing => Topic started by: Gary on July 13, 2018, 02:54:05 PM
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Hi All, I want to start by acknowledging this isn't a question about fishing from a kayak, but I figure it there is a lot of commonality between fishing from a jetty and from a kayak in terms of the depths of water one might encounter (I'm talking between 10-30 feet or so). Currently I fish a floating weight-forward line and try to control the depth of the fly by the length of my leader (I usually just fish a single piece of mono or flouro leader and heavy flies). Eventually the tip will sink. I have caught most of my fish using this setup in about 10-15 feet of water. What's your opinion on the best type of fly line to fish in this situation? Full sinking? Sink tip? Something else? How important do you consider the leader/tippet to be in this scenario? Thanks!
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Get in contact with surfs12foot. He's the only person I know who fished jettys exclusively with a fly rod and he's a heck of a Source for that kind of information. Just don't tell him Tinker sent you... :smt003
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Thanks - I will! I mean I won't!
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I use a shooting head with amnesia behind it. A type 6 shooting head works its way down pretty fast and is good for the depths you are taking about. I fish shallower in the delta and I use this setup with a slower sinking type 3. And it casts really well, even in high wind.
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I'm sorry I forgot what amnesia was. :smt044
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I'm sorry I forgot what amnesia was. :smt044
haaa !
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Go with what peterjmaes says. You can do a inter. running line (A little thicker if you have problems grabbing the line) too. I run a inter. running line with 15ft. of T- 20.Your going to wear the line out plus loose many heads to rocks and kelp and the barnacles so it needs to be simple to change out and fairly cheap, as compared to loosing a whole fly line :smt089. Leaders nothing fancy here as you already know- go with what you trust and keep it short max length 4ft. of straight mono or flouro. The fish around the jetty are not leader shy.(check the leader after every few cast for nicks,rough spots and anything else that's out of the norm and change the leader out if any of these show up right away. Don't get personal with the set up or your flies you are going to loose stuff. Break off and move on there are fish out there waiting for your fly. Helpful hint: try if you can cast somewhat parallel to the jetty, more fish environment that you can cover than casting straight out from the jetty.
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Yea! It's my turn!
Everything peterjmaes and surf12foot said, BUT if you have nimble fingers, spey-casting folks like to use 40# Berkley Big Game monofilament as their shooting/running line. I've only been practicing with it, but it casts a long, long, way, holds up well on my gravel driveway, and I can buy big spools of it at Wally World.
I'd add to what others have said that if you decide to use sink tips at the end of a level running/shooting line, I'd suggest tying on ~12" of 25#-30# monofilament between the sink tip and the leader to reduce the hinge a heavy tip can create.
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Great information guys - thanks a lot. This year I'm trying to focus on my fly skills and getting my equipment dialed-in. The guy on the youtube channel FishJonesBeach just did a jetty fly fishing video that was pretty fun to watch.
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I'd suggest tying on ~12" of 25#-30# monofilament between the sink tip and the leader to reduce the hinge a heavy tip can create.
When you say "tie on" does that include using the loop to loop connection, or do you recommend a different method?
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Loop-to-loop, Gary. I weld loops in bulk T-18 using RIO Level-T shrink tubing - it's not hard to do it yourself if you own a heat gun - but I understand The Fly Shop in Redding will add loops to any length of bulk sink tip if you ask them. Other shops may be doing the same, I just know about The Fly Shop.
I haven't used an Airflo polyleader or similar products but those may not even need the heavy section of leader. Maybe someone who has experience with them will let us know.
My line runs from the backing to the running line to a T-18 sink tip to the heavy section of leader - all of those are loop-to-loop connections. I tie the lighter part of the leader to the heavier section of leader with whatever knot my fingers will tie that day - usually a triple surgeon's knot because putting together a blood knot almost always gets me to cussing.
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Thanks once again - it's taking me a little while to wrap my mind around all this advice. Last year was my first season fishing the Bay with a fly rod and I just DIY'd it and somehow managed to catch a few fish. You guys are really helping me speed-up the learning process.
I have to mention that I caught my first 'butt (short) this year a few days ago on a weighted surf candy type fly I made earlier that day! I'm hoping to make that a more regular occurrence. The little escape artist got away before I could snap a picture :smt089
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I have to mention that I caught my first 'butt (short) this year a few days ago on a weighted surf candy type fly I made earlier that day!
Don't you love it when that happens?
The little escape artist got away before I could snap a picture :smt089
Don't you just hate it when that happens?
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Alright, we're going to give some of this advice a test over the weekend. I'm not used to thinking of heads and running lines as being separate things, so I had to figure out what y'all were talking about! I'm fishing a 9 foot 10 weight rod with 9-10 weight floating line. I like it for the oftentimes tight urban casting situations I find myself in (I can easily steeple cast back up over a chain link fence or bushes) but I don't get much distance. Also I suck at casting and have no point of comparison against a spey rod. The wind really screws me up and limits where I can cast to. Anyway, for now I'm planning to keep this setup and try a sink tip. Thanks Tinker for the idea of softening the hinge point - I've seen (videos) how a heavy sink tip hinges over after the head hits the water and ker-plops - not a pretty sight. Duck-and-chuck casting is no fun, either.
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All this awesome detail, here I clicked on this thread thinking you were gonna throw a live bait on a fly liner hook and send it on its merry way. Good fishing with your fly gear from a jetty... :smt006
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:smt023 Oh yeah! I like all kinds of fishing, but there's something special about hooking up on the fly rod. Plus, with the stripping basket I always have a place to put my beer! :beer2
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Alright, it's really really really weird and difficult to cast with a 10' sink tip! I got the RIO MOW T14 sink tip, and boy does it SINK. :smt103 I harvested some serious vegetation from the bay floor.
This definitely opens up deeper water options for me. I guess I need to get better at all the skagit casting skills, and probably set up a line properly to get it to behave. Darn it, I guess that means I need to buy a new reel (can't buy extra spools for my current one).
Well, I won't continue to regale you with my struggles, but I'm grateful to have a lot more options now. I might just stick with weighted flies and a long leader for <15' of water, because it has worked for me in that situation. But for the other 90% of the jetty, I will definitely be going with the sink tip.
I gotta start shopping for a kayak...
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It sounds like ten feet of T-14 might have been too much. Your theoretical sink rate is about 8 in/sec and only slightly slower when stripping. That might be taking you deeper than you need to be as your fly gets close to the jetty.
It's trial and error to get it dialed in and before you invest in another reel, you might want to try a lighter MOW tip and see if that gets the results you want. surf12foot uses a faster stripping retrieve than me and he's happy with 15' T-20 sink tips. I use 10'-12' of T-18 in deeper water, without a jetty.
We won't bore you with my Adventures in Casting Heavy Sink Tips For the First Time. Suffice it to say it wasn't pretty... :smt002
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It's going to feel weird at first. Just wait till your flies go over the 8" mark then it's like throwing a dead chicken. Slow your cast down and try what Tinker says-go with a lighter tip but most of all don't get down on your self it will come all together the more you get out there.
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Either I'm doing something right, or some of the things I'm doing wrong are canceling-out the other things I'm doing wrong! :smt003 A shorty but lots of fun.
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See there is nothing wrong with dragging the bottom, fish live there too and may I add to- the yummy kind it looks like to boot. These came from 20 feet off of a jetty up here in Oregon this morning in about 26 ft. of water
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Either I'm doing something right, or some of the things I'm doing wrong are canceling-out the other things I'm doing wrong! :smt003 A shorty but lots of fun.
Where's the beer?
Nice job, Gary. Half the time I think I'm doing it correctly 10 percent of the time. But it works...
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These came from 20 feet off of a jetty up here in Oregon this morning in about 26 ft. of water
Scott, those look fantastic - very inspiring!
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See there is nothing wrong with dragging the bottom, fish live there too and may I add to- the yummy kind it looks like to boot. These came from 20 feet off of a jetty up here in Oregon this morning in about 26 ft. of water
They were all between 2 feet - 5 feet off the bottom and they put up a heck of a battle. Ask anyone who passed by in the South Coast kayaking tour!
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If you go to a shooting head I would run 40# mono as the running line (its cheap)and then regarding the head look at your rod and it should have a grain weight. You will want about 30 foot of head and calculate the weight for the head and use the t# x 30 feet to get the correct overall head weight to match the rod. Don't be afraid to go a little heavier cuz you can always trim off some length to get it to load the rod properly. With a shooting head you are looking more for castability and being able to punch thru the wind. I run 7 to 15 feet of tippet on the end. I like to strip the weighted coating off the level and tie a perfection loop for the tippet to go on to. I just double nail knot a loop onto the back end.
Level t14-t20 is 30# test so I use 20 # tippet so I minimize loosing the level T. Another way to go is use Scientific Angler Wet Cel type 6 sinking line its real cheap and you can get deep with it. I have caught Lings with it.
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Thanks Crayon for your detailed (if a bit waxy) advice. I'll check out the SA line you mentioned. I like cheap line (I cannot lie).
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Hah that is great!
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I've used Berkley Big game mono as a running line (because it's popular with the spey-casting folks) and it had two drawbacks for me: all mono has line memory and it has to be stretched to relieve the coils every time you go fishing, and it's pretty easily nicked on rocks. I didn't mind stretching the line, and nicks aren't much of an issue in open water, but might be for jetty fishing. It's definitely low cost, but you might end up having to cut off damaged chunks of it and re-rig all day. YMMV.
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Great tips on line setup. For someone who does mainly freshwater fishing for trout and steelhead, and is new to kayak fishing on San Francisco and San Pablo Bays, I need all the help I can get. I'd like to use my 8 wt steelhead rod. Will that be sufficiently stiff for stripers and rockfish? Where would you recommend buying the running monofilament and shooting head/sink tip? Thanks, Randall Smith
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Great tips on line setup. For someone who does mainly freshwater fishing for trout and steelhead, and is new to kayak fishing on San Francisco and San Pablo Bays, I need all the help I can get. I'd like to use my 8 wt steelhead rod. Will that be sufficiently stiff for stripers and rockfish? Where would you recommend buying the running monofilament and shooting head/sink tip? Thanks, Randall Smith
Can't say about stripers since I've never had one on the hook and don't know how big they get around you, but I'd guess if your 8wt works for steelhead, it'll work for stripers, and it'll definitely work for rockfish. It helps to remember that you'll be in a kayak and a really big fish will pull you around which allows you to use lighter rods than you would if fishing from a stationary jetty or a boat. I've been using a 9wt since someone convinced me I might hook a Chinook but since that hasn't happened I'm planning to drop down to a 7wt this year. Maybe a 6wt.
For rigging, I've been using either SA Shooting Line ($39.95) or I've been cutting the head off fly lines I get on sale for $29.95 at Sierra Trading Post. After cutting a fly line, I weld a new loop on the cut end, but a dab of goop or Aquaseal to seal the cut end and a short section of 30# Maxima tied on with a nail knot works just as good. From there I attach x-feet of T18 - "x" is whatever length works best with the rod. For my 9wt, it's about 21 feet of T18 and I've never gone longer than 24 feet or shorter than 17 feet.
To me, it seems that thirty feet of T14 would be a lot of line to try and lift out of the water when casting from a kayak, and there's a post somewhere in this topic about doubling over the sink tip so you get the benefit of 30 feet without the problems caused by the length. It's a great idea that I simply haven't yet tried.
The advantages (for me) of the set-ups I use are that fly line material tends to be more abrasion resistant than monofilament, I can change the sink tip length or convert to a floating tip faster than I can change spools, and I don't need to keep buying (and carrying) extra spools for different lines. And it doesn't hurt that I can get three or four years out of one shooting/running line. Casting distance has never been important when fishing from my kayak - I can paddle into range.
I almost always fish with Scott and he may pop in with tips, too. He's the one who corrupted me and taught me what little I think I know.
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Thanks, Tinker. Really great tips and perspectives. I can't wait to put all this to use on the water. Randall
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It was mighty confusing to me when I got started because all of my earlier experience was in freshwater. Ask all the questions you can think of.
This is the thread talking about doubling-over the T-x sink tip: http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=71344.30. The information starts at post #22.
You asked about sources and I forgot the sink tip material: I buy bulk Airflo T-x sink tips material from The Fly Shop in Redding at $0.80/foot and get my precut Airflo T-20 from the Stillwater Fly Shop in Bend, OR, but it should be available in many other places. I use Rio Level-T welding tubes to create loops (lots of how-to videos online) and if you want to weld loops but don't already have a heat gun, go for a low-power unit because it's easy to overheat and damage the line - and it always happens on the second loop, darn it.
For leaders, I use level monofilament. Maxima Chameleon seems to be the toughest and most abrasion-resistant out there. Four to six feet is plenty. Four feet works the best for me, but I'll use six feet if I expect to change flies often, and will tie on a new leader when one gets down to around 3 feet to better protect the sink tip. I almost always use 12# test, never less than 10# in the ocean and nothing more than 18# test - and then only if I'm targeting lingcod. Saltwater fish aren't line shy but I want to break off quickly if necessary and it takes a surprising amount of effort to snap 20# leaders when you're in a kayak.
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"It was mighty confusing to me when I got started because all of my earlier experience was in freshwater. "
I can certainly relate to that. Equipment, tactics and techniques clearly are really important. I appreciate you taking the time to share. There's a lot to digest. Randall
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One more thing to throw at you- " Strip strike" learn it like there is no tomorrow. Your freshwater set is good for trout and such but now your out in the ocean and these fish mean business with bony mouths and such. Plus with a strip strike if you do miss the set the fly is still in the strike zone with the fish close by coming in for another swipe more than likely.
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One more thing to throw at you- " Strip strike" learn it like there is no tomorrow. Your freshwater set is good for trout and such but now your out in the ocean and these fish mean business with bony mouths and such. Plus with a strip strike if you do miss the set the fly is still in the strike zone with the fish close by coming in for another swipe more than likely.
Good point! The last time we were out I caught half of my fish on the second strike at the fly, and a few were the third fish to take a swipe at it.
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Thanks for the additional tips. This thread is chock full of good ideas. Randall