NorCal Kayak Anglers
Dive Zone => Kayak Diving and Spearfishing => DOTY => Topic started by: BigJim on January 05, 2016, 08:17:00 AM
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The below rule change has been proposed by DOTY committee member StinkyPete:
I'm basing this on the idea that the top 8-10 fish scores get submitted. Here's my reasoning for the system:
-I'm adding a point bias towards Abalone, Cabezon, Halibut, Lingcod (already biased), Sheepshead, Vermillion, WSB since those are the primary species targeted in the tournament bounds
-By only submitting 8 species (or 10) and having the bias in place, it pushes people to target the primary species rather than winning off garbage. You can't win without coming up fairly big on just about all of the primary species (minus wsb).
-Limiting the entries means that the tournament will most likely not come down to someone running out to shoot slight upgrades on garbage fish, since all the junkier fish trophy sizes come right around the 185-195 point mark.
-Eliminates the "loophole fish", ie lesser fish which have huge point values. These are the perch (220 points for 2 divers), MFE (Adam's was 218.75...sorry Jim), grass rockfish and kelp rockfish (three kelp rock fish over 210 points, are you kidding me??? An 11" abalone is currently only 209 points).
My initial response via email was as follows:
As explained in my texts my vote is no.
I believe such drastic changes to the game (point value changes and change from having all species count towards total points) warrant further discussion and input from a wider range of players.
I propose leaving the game unchanged for 2016 (since we are already in 2016), and creating a thread and poll to solicit input and feedback throughout the year on the proposed changes.
Such a thread would allow Peter to explain to other players why such changes would be beneficial for DOTY, and allow discussion of consequences for different levels (and geographic locations) of players, and exploration of different scenarios.
We already have a public thread dedicated to discussion and suggestions for DOTY changes, and I feel this is the place where these changes should have been presented to DOTY players and analyzed much earlier.
The thread pointed out to Jjjjeremy here has 13 pages of good discussion from back in 2014:
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=61455.0
Nelson and Charlie?
Sincerely,
Jim
I have some more detailed concerns and reasons why I do not support the proposal that I will post as soon as I get a chance this morning.
Please chime in with YOUR thoughts and feedback and whether or not you support the proposal.
Since time is of the essence, I'm hoping we can make a final decision by Friday at the latest so we can get the 2016 site up and running...sound fair?
:smt006
Sincerely,
Jim
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Here are some of my thoughts and reasons why I vote against the proposal:
1. I feel very strongly that all DOTY species should count towards total points. One of the COOLEST things about DOTY IMO is that it really challenges divers (in particular newer divers) to push themselves outside their comfort zone...and I think it would totally suck to have a diver get their first halibut, sheephead, verm, monkey, olive, grassy, scallop or whatever and not have it even make a difference in their score or show up on their list of fish...
Also, by only having a player's top ten species count you remove the incentive to travel and hunt species outside of your geographic comfort zone. For example a diver in mendo could focus on species that are relatively easy to find in their local reefs: Ling, Cab, Abalone, Scallop, Black, Verm, China, Grassy, Blue, Greenling. Could pretty easily get those 10 species in one weekend of diving and there would be zero incentive to look for a halibut or a sheephead or an olive or any other DOTY fish.
2. One thing that I have been thinking about, especially in regards to DOTY since it is a much newer comp than AOTY and one I have spent a lot of time working on, is that it is important to realize that any time we make changes we change the game...and the "value" of fish, points, finishers etc....
For example...in DOTY's first year we had calico as a species...in the 2nd year we took out calico....in the third year we changed the rules so that you couldn't point out fish to other divers...in the fourth year we added scallops...
I think all of those have been good changes, but ideally I would like to see some consistency from year to year so that players can really look back and compare their score/ranking historically....so unless a change really makes sense then I think it would be better to leave the rules etc as is...the rules and points may not be perfect but everybody is playing with the same rules at least.
3. Fuzz, Rick and I worked in late 2011 on establishing the Points-Per-Inch system using 200 points as the benchmark for max/trophy sized fish...it is NOT perfect but we used a combination of what is considered a trophy, state record size fish, and DFG info on max size.
Pete's proposal would do the following:
-Change abalone so that we would have 52 abalone of 200 points or more (ten inches or more)...not really max size if we have so many at 200 pts or more
-Change grass Rf so that we would never have had a grass rockfish of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 21 inches and Pete is proposing 22 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change greenling so that we would never have had a greenling of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 18.25 inches and Pete is proposing 19.05 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change Monkey point values so that three state records would not have been 200 point fish.
-Change Perch values so that current state record would not be a 200 point fish
3. I think the proposal is also elitist and discouraging to newer divers because it has a bias against species that are found more commonly in near shore habitats. Biasing the point system and labeling species as junk or trash fish is not something I support.
With all that said...I recognize that I myself am biased....I proposed the DOTY idea back in 2011 and worked hard to get it up and running with the help of fuzz, rick and the AOTY committee guys of that time.
If this is the direction that players want to see the game go I don't want to let my opinions hold people back...bottom line is that I am only one vote on the committee.
But I strongly encourage people to consider what kind of game DOTY has been for the past 4 yours, how much fun has been had by divers of all skill levels, and what kind of game it would become by supporting this proposal.
At the very least I propose continuing with DOTY rules as is for 2016 and allowing more time to review, discuss and consider this proposal over the course of the year.
Sincerely,
Jim
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Too much to read but if you start changing shit you will probably notice a lot more folks not competing. This aint spearboard. :smt006
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I posted my opinion on the thread link you posted above.
Still not sure I would suggest a change now that a handful of folks already paid for 2016 thinking things were the same.
But at some point if some of the fish Pete mentioned like perch or greenling were just given a flat length like an inch no matter how long they are it would still encourage people to hunt different areas for at least a few dives a year. Great for new divers as I loved trying different areas and learning where different species hide or feed. After a couple dives most divers know how to find them so it would give them more time to focus on bigger fish.
I still remember my first dive and limited knowledge of ocean species. Having a large pool of species to go after sure helps with properly learning them.
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Im in favor of submitting your ten largest fish. My last big sur venture would have been way more enjoyable if i werent sizing up blues, kelpies, and perch. Im not sure what i think of the new propossed point scale. If we ever went to a 10 fish format it would be pretty discouraging to have a perch beat out a nice ling.
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Here are some of my thoughts and reasons why I vote against the proposal:
1. I feel very strongly that all DOTY species should count towards total points. One of the COOLEST things about DOTY IMO is that it really challenges divers (in particular newer divers) to push themselves outside their comfort zone...and I think it would totally suck to have a diver get their first halibut, sheephead, verm, monkey, olive, grassy, scallop or whatever and not have it even make a difference in their score or show up on their list of fish...
Also, by only having a player's top ten species count you remove the incentive to travel and hunt species outside of your geographic comfort zone. For example a diver in mendo could focus on species that are relatively easy to find in their local reefs: Ling, Cab, Abalone, Scallop, Black, Verm, China, Grassy, Blue, Greenling. Could pretty easily get those 10 species in one weekend of diving and there would be zero incentive to look for a halibut or a sheephead or an olive or any other DOTY fish.
2. One thing that I have been thinking about, especially in regards to DOTY since it is a much newer comp than AOTY and one I have spent a lot of time working on, is that it is important to realize that any time we make changes we change the game...and the "value" of fish, points, finishers etc....
For example...in DOTY's first year we had calico as a species...in the 2nd year we took out calico....in the third year we changed the rules so that you couldn't point out fish to other divers...in the fourth year we added scallops...
I think all of those have been good changes, but ideally I would like to see some consistency from year to year so that players can really look back and compare their score/ranking historically....so unless a change really makes sense then I think it would be better to leave the rules etc as is...the rules and points may not be perfect but everybody is playing with the same rules at least.
3. Fuzz, Rick and I worked in late 2011 on establishing the Points-Per-Inch system using 200 points as the benchmark for max/trophy sized fish...it is NOT perfect but we used a combination of what is considered a trophy, state record size fish, and DFG info on max size.
Pete's proposal would do the following:
-Change abalone so that we would have 52 abalone of 200 points or more (ten inches or more)...not really max size if we have so many at 200 pts or more
-Change grass Rf so that we would never have had a grass rockfish of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 21 inches and Pete is proposing 22 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change greenling so that we would never have had a greenling of 200 points submitted (biggest so far is 18.25 inches and Pete is proposing 19.05 inches be the new 200 point value).
-Change Monkey point values so that three state records would not have been 200 point fish.
-Change Perch values so that current state record would not be a 200 point fish
3. I think the proposal is also elitist and discouraging to newer divers because it has a bias against species that are found more commonly in near shore habitats. Biasing the point system and labeling species as junk or trash fish is not something I support.
With all that said...I recognize that I myself am biased....I proposed the DOTY idea back in 2011 and worked hard to get it up and running with the help of fuzz, rick and the AOTY committee guys of that time.
If this is the direction that players want to see the game go I don't want to let my opinions hold people back...bottom line is that I am only one vote on the committee.
But I strongly encourage people to consider what kind of game DOTY has been for the past 4 yours, how much fun has been had by divers of all skill levels, and what kind of game it would become by supporting this proposal.
At the very least I propose continuing with DOTY rules as is for 2016 and allowing more time to review, discuss and consider this proposal over the course of the year.
Sincerely,
Jim
+1 leave as is for 2016.
Maybe consider fish point adjustments for 2017 if it's too late for 2016.
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While I have no stake in the DOTY rules, I've thought about the same for AOTY, with the conclusion that top 10 fish is better than top 20. While its great to get people to push their limits to win, most newbie divers don't really stand a chance when they have to go after 20 different species. They actually have a better chance to win with 10. I do think that there should be an incentive to get 20 species or more species to push people to try new things - either some sort of plaque or prize (as well as the previously floated raffle tickets). This is true for AOTY as well.
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My vote would be to leave it as 20, not that I would count here much. I do dive, but will never be able to compete with all of you that live closer to the coast. My thought is with 20 it will push me personally to work on getting better on how to find certain fish, where they hang out, depths etc. I at one time thought the opposite too. In AOTY we only get 1 rockfish, where in DOTY you get to pick and choose several.
I think AOTY should also be all 20. It will make people work harder at learning new techniques etc to get the 20. More of an all around type of competition. I have felt that just 10 makes it much easier to place. No disrespect to the top guys since I know they work hard at most species we have. The last few years I have caught 15-16 species with quality size where the winners did not catch much more than 10. I have been top 3 a couple times, but with volume I would have possibly won.
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I guess on the NCKA board my screen name is RottieOwner, but my username on DOTY is StinkyPete. I finally got a break to check in on this, so I wanted to add a few thoughts as to why I'm proposing this stuff:
-Submitting 10 species instead of the current number we have (18) does two things: it prevents divers from shooting fish that they otherwise would have no interest in shooting, and also makes it a closer race since many people will do well for at least 5 or 6 of the species. This year, how many coppers did we have that were under 14" in December? People were just shooting teeny, tiny fish because they needed to squeeze out a few points. A 10 species submission will eliminate that and I think we'll end up with more quality, and less quantity. Besides, it doesn't prevent people from targeting a species since this point system is more even than previously, with small exceptions to the (6) biased species.
-Changing the point bias, for the most part, simply makes sense. Some species, like halibut, abalone, lingcod, cabezon, sheepshead and vermillion, should have a slight bias, as they are the species that most people target. Last I checked, halibut, abalone, lingcod and cabezon are near shore species. To me (and this is just an opinion), it is absolutely stupid that a 16" kelp rockfish has an equivalent point value to an 11" abalone, or a 19" perch.
Lastly, keep in mind that I'm not adding a bias, I'm simply changing the point bias. If you look at the historical scores, the fish that have a current, favorable bias are: Cabezon, kelp rockfish, halibut, lingcod, perch. With that in mind, it's not that dramatic of a change in point scale.
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Regarding the 10 vs 18/20 species: the way I see it, reducing the number of fish needed to be competitive has the possibility of INCREASING participation and opportunities for success. If you look back over the past years, you notice that the top 5-10 guys place consistently in the top 5-10 spots. Not to say that Jim, Kris, Adam, Matt, Charlie, Joe, Nelson, Sean, Rob, Peter etc aren't great divers, but changing to a top 10 system gives more opportunities to more divers. Divers that don't have the ability to get to the depths to find a vermillion, or the time and resources to get a sheephead aren't penalized. Plus, diver's aren't penalized for not shooting fish that shouldn't be shot. There's no reason to push divers to shoot 12" coppers just to get the points.
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Too much to read but if you start changing shit you will probably notice a lot more folks not competing. This aint spearboard. :smt006
Nobody was complaining about perch upgrades until after the fact. Although I agree with Peter for a more serious competition, DOTY is for fun right? Newbies included, right? The format opens the field for everyone to have a good time. Most of the points are from rockfish for Christ's sake. I vote to leave it the same. Fishmaster1 is counting on them perch upgrades :smt002
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I got your perch hanging. :smt002.
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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same. Or maybe have certain biases in species that occur in different parts of the state such that norcal and Monterey Bay balance out (i.e. bias abalone-north, and bias sheephead-MBay (or china-north and WSB-MBay :smt007 ) as a pair in order to incentivize a central coast diver to dive Mendo, and vice versa).
Also, not too feasible/in the spirit of DOTY, but probably pretty cool to watch strategy-wise would be to allow only one entry per species (no upgrades). It would really force you to be selective, and if you thought a fish was garbage, well, you'd only have incentive to shoot one all year.
it prevents divers from shooting fish that they otherwise would have no interest in shooting
I think this is in part a reason why I haven't done too many of these competitions (DOTY, King of the Tritons, etc.) the past couple years. Plus, I think it's really fun to target the species that will skunk you more often than not, and I think that it really improves you as a diver (in terms of discipline, patterning fish, selectivity, etc.) just as much or more than trying to get as many different species as possible.
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Also, you could potentially look at the all-time max lengths ever entered and set those as the 200 point benchmarks if the goal is to deflate scores (the outcome would be kind of like AOTY, I'm guessing? There are far fewer 200+ point fish in AOTY).
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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.
My vote is for this the above.
Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)
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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.
My vote is for this the above.
Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)
Well there you go.
Done deal since you and Pete voted for it and Charlie is MIA, so no more point discussing.
I'm disappointed you guys waited until past the end of 2015 to bring this up and didn't give more people a chance to express their opinion, but it is what it is.
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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.
My vote is for this the above.
Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)
Well there you go.
Done deal since you and Pete voted for it and Charlie is MIA, so no more point discussing.
I'm disappointed you guys waited until past the end of 2015 to bring this up and didn't give more people a chance to express their opinion, but it is what it is.
I don't think this discussion needs to end and I still want to hear people voice their opinions.
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Girls should have some unfair advantage :smt044
Just my 2 cents
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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.
My vote is for this the above.d
Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)
I'm new to DOTY and fairly new to spearfishing. I think submitting all 18 or so species of fish/shellfish for the DOTY tournament would improve my diving and hunting skills much more as compared to only submitting 8 or 10 species. The main factor would be the motivation and the requirement to search for all species from Big Sur to the far North.
If the rule changes to top 10 or so fish, my concentration for this tournament would move toward finding fish I'm most successful in finding (kelp, grass, greenling, perch, mfpb, abs...). In this case, we have "lesser" divers looking for different set of fish compared to the more accomplished divers in the same tournament. I feel a tournament should have the same paths and goals for all contestants so that it can be used as a personal measuring stick so to speak.
Personally, I like eating all fish and don't have any preference (they all kind of taste the same). My wife's favorite is perch!
I have a suggestion to tweak the scoring a bit. I agree that there should be a tweak in the scoring system. For example, a 10 inch ab should be a trophy (200 pts) and an 11 inch ab should be worth way more than 210 pts. Currently, the scoring system uses a linear scale, which doesn't account for awarding value in finding fish beyond the trophy level (200 pts). Lets say the score for a trophy vermilion is 220 using a linear scoring system. By using an exponential scale, for example an exponent of 1.15 for the 20 points above trophy status, we get a score of 200 + 20^(1.15) = 231.34, thus adding 11.34 points more for finding a fish above trophy status. This exponent value can be determined using previous DOTY entries but will be different for different species.
This will allow divers who choose "quality" over quantity to get extra points for trophy fish and won't be penalized for not upgrading to a perch. Looking at the 2015 DOTY, it would be interesting to see how the score would move and what it represents.
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Girls should have some unfair advantage :smt044
Just my 2 cents
Yes girls, but not women who can dive to 70'.
You out fish many men so I know you are not serious.
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Haha you got me there DG. I'm never serious. Any opportunity I have to make myself laugh I take it! :smt005
I'm not contributing anything to this conversation. I'm just looking forward to participating in DOTY this year. :smt003
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Perhaps a good compromise would be to limit the number of entries to 10, but keep point totals the same.
My vote is for this the above.d
Keep points the same, or perhaps adjust points if they have historically skewed too high or too low for a certain species, but avoid adjusting points based on a perceived food or trophy value of the fish taken (i.e. making lings and reds score inherently higher than perch and or eel)
I'm new to DOTY and fairly new to spearfishing. I think submitting all 18 or so species of fish/shellfish for the DOTY tournament would improve my diving and hunting skills much more as compared to only submitting 8 or 10 species. The main factor would be the motivation and the requirement to search for all species from Big Sur to the far North.
If the rule changes to top 10 or so fish, my concentration for this tournament would move toward finding fish I'm most successful in finding (kelp, grass, greenling, perch, mfpb, abs...). In this case, we have "lesser" divers looking for different set of fish compared to the more accomplished divers in the same tournament. I feel a tournament should have the same paths and goals for all contestants so that it can be used as a personal measuring stick so to speak.
Personally, I like eating all fish and don't have any preference (they all kind of taste the same). My wife's favorite is perch!
I have a suggestion to tweak the scoring a bit. I agree that there should be a tweak in the scoring system. For example, a 10 inch ab should be a trophy (200 pts) and an 11 inch ab should be worth way more than 210 pts. Currently, the scoring system uses a linear scale, which doesn't account for awarding value in finding fish beyond the trophy level (200 pts). Lets say the score for a trophy vermilion is 220 using a linear scoring system. By using an exponential scale, for example an exponent of 1.15 for the 20 points above trophy status, we get a score of 200 + 20^(1.15) = 231.34, thus adding 11.34 points more for finding a fish above trophy status. This exponent value can be determined using previous DOTY entries but will be different for different species.
This will allow divers who choose "quality" over quantity to get extra points for trophy fish and won't be penalized for not upgrading to a perch. Looking at the 2015 DOTY, it would be interesting to see how the score would move and what it represents.
What you're saying with an exponent scoring value makes sense, but I think guys will have a tough time agreeing to it when it comes down to quarter inches in the last few days of the tournament. To me, the beauty of the linear scoring is its simplicity. It's very straightforward and uncomplicated.
Personally, I think seeing that there are 18 options of fish to shoot/pop/grab will get you out there looking for different stuff. Keep in mind that the bias isn't huge, and the bias is only geared towards the 5 most sought after species. With 10 submissions, that means that 5 other species are up for grabs. Realistically, your odds of placing in the top tier are higher with this method, because you don't need to get the harder to acquire species in order to win. With the old system, if you didn't find a halibut (only about 8 guys got one last year), it would not have been possible for you to place in the top 6. Now, you'd only have 20 points to make up elsewhere for a different species (biggest one taken this year was 220 points).
Lastly, I agree with you on the abalone thing whole-heartedly and think they should be worth 20 points per inch (simple...10" ab means 200, which is trophy). I was furious to see my 11.25" ab score less than a 20" perch, of which there were three taken this year. The same for Parviz. Getting an ab of that size is a much bigger accomplishment than a 20" perch, IMHO. That's why I tweaked the point values. To me, the new values make a lot more sense.
Given the current bias and without the point change, this will likely be the winning set of 10 fish for 2016, based on typical, historical scores that come in for them:
1. Kelp Rockfish
2. Cabezon
3. Lingcod
4. Perch
5. Halibut
6. Vermillion
7. MFE
8. Black Rockfish
9. Black and Yellow/China
10. Grass Rockfish
You can alternate the black/yellow or grass rockfish with abalone if you're regularly pulling 10"+ abs
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I think more species is better. It doesn't have to be all 18, but it doesn't have to be 8 or 10. More species equals more water time, more work. It makes this into a real marathon, and it makes you have to change your routine and dedicate a dive day to something different. It also adds more of an aspect of chance. Finding a very large Kelpie, blue, or B&Y is more of a random event. And that rewards newbies and people who spend more time in the water.
But, we do not want to promote any killing of fish that would not otherwise occur. We can solve that by not counting all 18 fish, by putting minimum size limits on fish, and/or by putting point caps on fish (greenlings, kelpies, perch, and blues max at 180, for example).
Finally, I see no harm in adjusting points per fish, but bias-weighting the top trophy fish seems like it hurts the new divers. New divers will already be beaten straight up in those categories. I think we just take the average of the nearly top 3 fish in each category (excluding #1) and call that a 200. We can call a 10" ab a 200, because that happens to be a magic number. These does not address Pete's concern that a perch beats an 11" inch ab. The answer to that is to embrace it and say that we are handicapping perch, in part to help newbies get points. Pete still wins that ab category and still has an opportunity to shoot a 221 point perch himself. The Dipsea Race is handicapped every year based on age and gender. Slower people get to start first. It is one of the most famous footraces in America and it has been won by a nine-year-old girl. That's one of the things that makes it so significant.
SO;
Count Top 14 fish
Abs are 20 points per inch
No fish under 12"
200 points represents the average of 2d-4th biggest fish in that category for all DOTY years. #2-#4 Verms average to 23". 200/23= 8.7. This handicapping would be updated the same way every year, so the 200 point ideal evolves. 200 would no longer signify trophy. It would be the ideal. Breaking 200 should mean it might be the biggest in DOTY history.
My two cents . . . .
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FWIW, my vote as a committee member is:
"No change for 2016 (since 2016 has already started), discuss and evaluate ALL of these potential changes for 2017 and create polls of various options (Pete's option, Yowlie's min size limit etc) and PM DOTY players and ask them for their input and use that unrushed input to create changes (if need be) for 2017 that reflect what the majority of DOTY players want".
Texting with Nelson and his vote seems to be "Go to Top Ten for 2016, leave points per inch unchanged".
Pete's vote is outlined in first post "Go to Top Ten for 2016 and change points per inch as proposed".
I have texted Charlie to alert him to this discussion and to try and get his input.
Sincerely,
Jim
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I’ll preface this by saying I enjoy DOTY and appreciate all the work the committee does to keep it going. Thanks very much guys!
With that said, I don't like perch or abalone, so I would really prefer not to take any. I don't like diving in shallow water, so I'd prefer not to target grassies or MFE. I tried diving for halibut three times last year and I just did not enjoy any of those dives. And I live quite far from the ocean, which means that in a good year I'll see the water maybe 20 times. So I'd prefer not to spend those trips diving areas I don't want to dive and shooting fish I don't want to shoot.
I feel like counting just your top ten species would open up the competition to more divers. However, the way fish are scored currently, it would also provide a clear incentive to target certain species. It would be nice if the scoring system were adjusted to attempt to remove the bias rather than simply shifting the bias from one set of ten species to another “preferred” set. This can’t be done effectively by adjusting only the points-per-inch. There would have to be a whole new scoring system that takes into account not only the size of a “trophy” within each species, but also the overall distribution of lengths that are likely to be submitted.
That would be a complicated change, though. And it seems a little late now to be discussing new rules for 2016, especially if some folks have already paid their fees. So while I welcome any change that means I don't feel pressure to hunt every DOTY species, my preference is for thoughtful changes next year rather than hasty ones right now.
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We're only 6 days into 2016 at this point, so I don't think there's really an issue with late notice of rule changes. I doubt these changes are so significant that people won't want to participate. It's not like it's going to be mandatory to shoot a WSB.
At least for me, this isn't Pokemon. It isn't about dominating every species in the ocean. Even at 18 fish we're excluding a lot of fish that could be included, like treefish, opaleye, blacksmith, angel sharks, giant kelpfish, senioritas, buffalo sculpin, wolf eels, and sand dabs. We could also split up the gopher/BY/chinas and rock/kelp greenlings. Why not include octopus on points per pound, or snails by points per millimeter?
The point is that moving to a top 10 fish system opens the top spots to MORE divers because new divers aren't required to shoot harder-to-find fish, and more experienced divers aren't penalized by not shooting fish they won't eat. Keeping it at 10 fish will still force divers to explore new areas too. You're not going to shoot a sheep and pull an abalone in the same day. You're not going to find an MFE and halibut lying next to each other either. Vermillion and grassies aren't friends.
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We're only 6 days into 2016 at this point, so I don't think there's really an issue with late notice of rule changes. I doubt these changes are so significant that people won't want to participate. It's not like it's going to be mandatory to shoot a WSB.
At least for me, this isn't Pokemon. It isn't about dominating every species in the ocean. Even at 18 fish we're excluding a lot of fish that could be included, like treefish, opaleye, blacksmith, angel sharks, giant kelpfish, senioritas, buffalo sculpin, wolf eels, and sand dabs. We could also split up the gopher/BY/chinas and rock/kelp greenlings. Why not include octopus on points per pound, or snails by points per millimeter?
The point is that moving to a top 10 fish system opens the top spots to MORE divers because new divers aren't required to shoot harder-to-find fish, and more experienced divers aren't penalized by not shooting fish they won't eat. Keeping it at 10 fish will still force divers to explore new areas too. You're not going to shoot a sheep and pull an abalone in the same day. You're not going to find an MFE and halibut lying next to each other either. Vermillion and grassies aren't friends.
Sand Dabs & Snails :smt044
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I think more species is better. It doesn't have to be all 18, but it doesn't have to be 8 or 10. More species equals more water time, more work. It makes this into a real marathon, and it makes you have to change your routine and dedicate a dive day to something different. It also adds more of an aspect of chance. Finding a very large Kelpie, blue, or B&Y is more of a random event. And that rewards newbies and people who spend more time in the water.
But, we do not want to promote any killing of fish that would not otherwise occur. We can solve that by not counting all 18 fish, by putting minimum size limits on fish, and/or by putting point caps on fish (greenlings, kelpies, perch, and blues max at 180, for example).
Finally, I see no harm in adjusting points per fish, but bias-weighting the top trophy fish seems like it hurts the new divers. New divers will already be beaten straight up in those categories. I think we just take the average of the nearly top 3 fish in each category (excluding #1) and call that a 200. We can call a 10" ab a 200, because that happens to be a magic number. These does not address Pete's concern that a perch beats an 11" inch ab. The answer to that is to embrace it and say that we are handicapping perch, in part to help newbies get points. Pete still wins that ab category and still has an opportunity to shoot a 221 point perch himself. The Dipsea Race is handicapped every year based on age and gender. Slower people get to start first. It is one of the most famous footraces in America and it has been won by a nine-year-old girl. That's one of the things that makes it so significant.
SO;
Count Top 14 fish
Abs are 20 points per inch
No fish under 12"
200 points represents the average of 2d-4th biggest fish in that category for all DOTY years. #2-#4 Verms average to 23". 200/23= 8.7. This handicapping would be updated the same way every year, so the 200 point ideal evolves. 200 would no longer signify trophy. It would be the ideal. Breaking 200 should mean it might be the biggest in DOTY history.
As someone who has never done DOTY but is considering it, I think moving down from 18/20 species is a good idea. 10 or 12 fish would be much more manageable.
I like a lot of what Yowlie proposed, especially the adjustment in scoring system. That should remove any bias toward certain species by setting standards based upon the sizes that have been taken historically. Also, putting minimum sizes and limiting the number of upgrades could keep people from shooting lots of small fish they wouldn't otherwise take.
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My vote is to leave it the same for 2016. We already entered the New Year and people are already playing. Changes should have been made prior to the start with time for people to voice their opinions before the year started.
More or less, I'm happy with the format of the competition. I understand that a 20'' perch shouldn't be worth 20 points more than an 8.5 inch scallop, but given that all players are receiving the same amount of points per inch, it really doesn't matters at the end in totals. The whole point scale vs. trophy fish is only a title; not a game changer. If that really is a problem, sure, change it to more realistic point numbers. But it won't change anything in the end if we're all getting the same points per fish.
I believe the 18 fish competition should be left the way it is. This was my first year of competing in DOTY and before this year, I probably did only shoot about 10 of the fish per year. This competition forced me to go places I knew the fish I needed would be and it also forced me to network more with other divers to help expand my knowledge on fish patterns and locations. In the spirit of title of the competition "Diver of The Year", I feel that a 10 fish count would greatly dumb down the comp. We're given 365 days to shoot 18 different fish. It takes less than 11.5 hours to drive from south Monterey County to the Oregon border. One participant in 2015 shot 16 different fish species for the comp on December 27th, 28th and 31st. If we only had 10 fish to fill, a person who has only been diving a few months could will the tile of DOTY. Not really sure that's fair??? I understand the argument for people to advocate for a 10 fish count, and there were fish that I didn't enjoy hunting, but I rather see people hunting a wide variety rather than everyone blowing up one area to get the easy top ten.
I've personally shot 17 of the 18 fish in less than 35 feet of water. If you're going to start removing fish, I would understand combining WSB and halibut into one category such as "china/ black yellow/ gopher". If a person shot a WSB, they would almost be unstoppable in the comp given the rarity of the fish.
No matter what the rule changes become, I had a great time diving DOTY 2015 and can't wait to start diving 2016. Thank you to all the board members and good luck to all that participate.
Steve
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As someone who has never done DOTY but is considering it, I think moving down from 18/20 species is a good idea. 10 or 12 fish would be much more manageable.
I like a lot of what Yowlie proposed, especially the adjustment in scoring system. That should remove any bias toward certain species by setting standards based upon the sizes that have been taken historically. Also, putting minimum sizes and limiting the number of upgrades could keep people from shooting lots of small fish they wouldn't otherwise take.
This would work for me as well. I'm not overly enthusiastic about taking out the biases, but if that's the community feel, it would be easy to adjust the points per inch as Yowlie suggested. I think you guys have a good point by saying that removing the biases would open the field for newer divers.
God I hope it's not a .25" MFE upgrade that beats a WSB or a halibut entry though....
Jim, I don't think there are that many people who would opt out if they can only submit ten species instead of 18. I'd be willing to bet there are more guys, myself included, who are less excited to compete this year with the way the current rules stand.
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Charlie is MIA
Marco Rubio?
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Jim, I don't think there are that many people who would opt out if they can only submit ten species instead of 18. I'd be willing to bet there are more guys, myself included, who are less excited to compete this year with the way the current rules stand.
With all due respect Pete (especially as a committee member this year) if you were unhappy with the way the comp was going why didn't you bring it up for discussion earlier?
I personally think it was inconsiderate and kinda shitty to bring up such drastic changes after the New Year, especially when myself and the other members of the committee are scrambling to get the 2016 sites up and running ASAP, and getting the awards ceremony planned, and all the plaques and prizes secured in time etc...
We have a private forum for this stuff but you have never once posted or participated over there...maybe you only have access under your other handle I dunno but I do know I sent texts and PMs to you and Charlie and nelson with links to threads and issues so you had plenty of opportunities to bring this stuff up.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?action=profile;u=11079
Whatever, I should have just gone forward with making the new 2016 sites instead of asking two days ago if the rules looked ok and if you had any last minute changes....these weren't the kind of last minute changes I was expecting.
:smt005
Sincerely,
Jim
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Charlie is MIA
Marco Rubio?
"Every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger . . . ."
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Here is my two cents:
I like the current setup for DOTY because it does push you to go out and learn/hunt every species. DOTY was started and is setup as a species competition where if you want to win you are pushed to go out and hunt more species not just those you like to target.
I think a top 10 fish comp is great but it is not what DOTY was set out to be. I think the top 10 for AOTY works because not every angler lives near the salt and being part of NCKA does not mean you have to kayak fish in the ocean whereas DOTY we are almost exclusively in the ocean minus some people doing stripers. It is a commitment to fill all species and truly does show your knowledge of fish habitat and where they may be.
I know where a few species live but when I headed out to get a larger black rockfish on the 31st my question to Deke was, “What do big black rockfish like?” I realized at that point I had been pretty lucky to find some in the past and I truly didn’t know or understand their structure like I did some of the other fish. Crappy feeling on the last day when I should have done my homework rather than just thinking it is Mendo and there are a ton of big blacks up there.
I think regardless of whether a fish is considered “garbage” or a “trash” fish, a trophy fish of any species is an accomplishment. To put more value on a fish because it is what you personally target takes away from the overall point of the competition. As stated multiple times if you have a moral or ethical stance against shooting a smaller sized fish then don’t do it. That is your decision as a hunter and no one can question it. If you feel by playing DOTY it compromises your values then don’t play or pass up that fish, let’s not get into the same mindset where if it doesn’t work for me then we should change the way we play the game.
That being said I hate shooting MFE, greenling and perch. I shot 4 greenlings, 2 perch and 2 MFE this year. I have plenty of friends and family that eat it so I am okay giving it away. If I decided I couldn’t eat it or didn’t have anyone to eat it, I wouldn’t shoot it, not try to change the rules of a competition where it is voluntary to compete.
Another note is if we went to a pure top 10 competition and kept point totals the same then someone who shoots/harvests the following could win: Perch, B&Y, greenling, abalone, kelpie, grassy, blue, mfe, black and Cab. Without shooting the rest of the fish, some which I think require more skill/time/season etc, I think a lot of people would be unhappy with the final results unless we started adjusting points per fish which would turn DOTY into a different comp than it is intended to be. Cutting down the amount of fish for those who travel or are newer isn’t really part of competing. I played sports my entire life, coached at a pretty high level for almost a decade and don’t believe any would benefit from having only 10 fish in the comp and make people feel better about their participation award. I think points for fish can and should always be looked at and re-evaluated if something comes up that calls for a significant change in the point system such as an 11 inch ab but since everyone does have the same point totals for abs it doesn’t skew the system as lorikay pointed out.
Another thing to think about is in 2013 when Jim shot his halibut, he won because he went out time after time to find them. In 2014 you had the top 7 with butts which showed growth in the comp because everyone knew you needed a butt to win. Jim changed DOTY by going out and finding a Halibut, had he not done that I don’t know how many people would have gone out and gotten them. Same with a WSB, when someone shoots a Norcal ghost and wins DOTY because of their dedication and drive to sit in the cold nasty murk they will have changed the game. I would not be surprised that the next year had a few of them in the top 10 because the dive community would have grown.
There are a lot of ideas being thrown out there about comps and how it should or could be done but the reality is most of us will not be the ones organizing the events, chasing down sponsors, verifying fish and getting others to do it. Jim does all of that and even though DOTY belongs to NCKA it is his and Fuzz’s design and definitely Jim’s passion. I know Jim is trying to do right by the community and I think in large he has. There are a ton of divers out there that would have never hunted or learned about most the species on the list if not for DOTY. If this was anyone else’s comp/design and someone tried to implement new rules past the start date I’m pretty sure they’d get shot down immediately but Jim being Jim is trying to work with everyone and do the right thing. I learned a long time ago you will never do the “right thing” when it comes to pleasing everyone and at the end of the day feel Jim has more say and ownership in this comp than anyone else and that alone should give him 51% of the vote. If you don’t like it don’t play or start your own comp, line up sponsors, field opinions from a couple dozen people and let us know how it goes and if it runs as smooth as DOTY does. Maybe some of you can get it off the ground and maybe it will do well and give divers another option to play and that would be fantastic.
I know we are getting ready to announce a few competitions soon and we have been working hard on them and they will only be single day comps. That being said if you are also in the mindset to give certain fish more points than other well Cencal, GLACD and a few other spearfishing organizations put on some great comps that are pretty cut throat; go play in those where same day same ocean applies and truly test your skill if you are of that mindset.
DOTY is a species style tournament to show a diver’s ability to learn and harvest the list of fish given. If you have suggestions on the fish to add, separate or take away do like most do and make the suggestions well in advance and give the board proper time to go over the submission, possible effects of changing the rules and time to implement them. Once you set a precedent for someone changing something after comp has started then who is to say how many days/weeks/months is acceptable. We have rules in life for a reason, respect the rules. If you want to change the rules do it in a proper fashion and speak up when given the opportunity, such as when Jim sent PM in early December.
If we are going to put a personal spin on it maybe I already spent time and money camping 3 days in Big Sur trying to slay fish I don’t even need this year now.
Matt
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FWIW, my vote as a committee member is:
"No change for 2016 (since 2016 has already started), discuss and evaluate ALL of these potential changes for 2017 and create polls of various options (Pete's option, Yowlie's min size limit etc) and PM DOTY players and ask them for their input and use that unrushed input to create changes (if need be) for 2017 that reflect what the majority of DOTY players want".
This, too many opinions to change now.
Here is my two cents:
I like the current setup for DOTY because it does push you to go out and learn/hunt every species. DOTY was started and is setup as a species competition where if you want to win you are pushed to go out and hunt more species not just those you like to target.
I think a top 10 fish comp is great but it is not what DOTY was set out to be. I think the top 10 for AOTY works because not every angler lives near the salt and being part of NCKA does not mean you have to kayak fish in the ocean whereas DOTY we are almost exclusively in the ocean minus some people doing stripers. It is a commitment to fill all species and truly does show your knowledge of fish habitat and where they may be.
I know where a few species live but when I headed out to get a larger black rockfish on the 31st my question to Deke was, “What do big black rockfish like?” I realized at that point I had been pretty lucky to find some in the past and I truly didn’t know or understand their structure like I did some of the other fish. Crappy feeling on the last day when I should have done my homework rather than just thinking it is Mendo and there are a ton of big blacks up there.
I think regardless of whether a fish is considered “garbage” or a “trash” fish, a trophy fish of any species is an accomplishment. To put more value on a fish because it is what you personally target takes away from the overall point of the competition. As stated multiple times if you have a moral or ethical stance against shooting a smaller sized fish then don’t do it. That is your decision as a hunter and no one can question it. If you feel by playing DOTY it compromises your values then don’t play or pass up that fish, let’s not get into the same mindset where if it doesn’t work for me then we should change the way we play the game.
That being said I hate shooting MFE, greenling and perch. I shot 4 greenlings, 2 perch and 2 MFE this year. I have plenty of friends and family that eat it so I am okay giving it away. If I decided I couldn’t eat it or didn’t have anyone to eat it, I wouldn’t shoot it, not try to change the rules of a competition where it is voluntary to compete.
Another note is if we went to a pure top 10 competition and kept point totals the same then someone who shoots/harvests the following could win: Perch, B&Y, greenling, abalone, kelpie, grassy, blue, mfe, black and Cab. Without shooting the rest of the fish, some which I think require more skill/time/season etc, I think a lot of people would be unhappy with the final results unless we started adjusting points per fish which would turn DOTY into a different comp than it is intended to be. Cutting down the amount of fish for those who travel or are newer isn’t really part of competing. I played sports my entire life, coached at a pretty high level for almost a decade and don’t believe any would benefit from having only 10 fish in the comp and make people feel better about their participation award. I think points for fish can and should always be looked at and re-evaluated if something comes up that calls for a significant change in the point system such as an 11 inch ab but since everyone does have the same point totals for abs it doesn’t skew the system as lorikay pointed out.
Another thing to think about is in 2013 when Jim shot his halibut, he won because he went out time after time to find them. In 2014 you had the top 7 with butts which showed growth in the comp because everyone knew you needed a butt to win. Jim changed DOTY by going out and finding a Halibut, had he not done that I don’t know how many people would have gone out and gotten them. Same with a WSB, when someone shoots a Norcal ghost and wins DOTY because of their dedication and drive to sit in the cold nasty murk they will have changed the game. I would not be surprised that the next year had a few of them in the top 10 because the dive community would have grown.
There are a lot of ideas being thrown out there about comps and how it should or could be done but the reality is most of us will not be the ones organizing the events, chasing down sponsors, verifying fish and getting others to do it. Jim does all of that and even though DOTY belongs to NCKA it is his and Fuzz’s design and definitely Jim’s passion. I know Jim is trying to do right by the community and I think in large he has. There are a ton of divers out there that would have never hunted or learned about most the species on the list if not for DOTY. If this was anyone else’s comp/design and someone tried to implement new rules past the start date I’m pretty sure they’d get shot down immediately but Jim being Jim is trying to work with everyone and do the right thing. I learned a long time ago you will never do the “right thing” when it comes to pleasing everyone and at the end of the day feel Jim has more say and ownership in this comp than anyone else and that alone should give him 51% of the vote. If you don’t like it don’t play or start your own comp, line up sponsors, field opinions from a couple dozen people and let us know how it goes and if it runs as smooth as DOTY does. Maybe some of you can get it off the ground and maybe it will do well and give divers another option to play and that would be fantastic.
I know we are getting ready to announce a few competitions soon and we have been working hard on them and they will only be single day comps. That being said if you are also in the mindset to give certain fish more points than other well Cencal, GLACD and a few other spearfishing organizations put on some great comps that are pretty cut throat; go play in those where same day same ocean applies and truly test your skill if you are of that mindset.
DOTY is a species style tournament to show a diver’s ability to learn and harvest the list of fish given. If you have suggestions on the fish to add, separate or take away do like most do and make the suggestions well in advance and give the board proper time to go over the submission, possible effects of changing the rules and time to implement them. Once you set a precedent for someone changing something after comp has started then who is to say how many days/weeks/months is acceptable. We have rules in life for a reason, respect the rules. If you want to change the rules do it in a proper fashion and speak up when given the opportunity, such as when Jim sent PM in early December.
If we are going to put a personal spin on it maybe I already spent time and money camping 3 days in Big Sur trying to slay fish I don’t even need this year now.
Matt
Well said. BTW you have 2 weeks to post up your Big Sur fish :smt001
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With all due respect Pete (especially as a committee member this year) if you were unhappy with the way the comp was going why didn't you bring it up for discussion earlier?
I personally think it was inconsiderate and kinda shitty to bring up such drastic changes after the New Year, especially when myself and the other members of the committee are scrambling to get the 2016 sites up and running ASAP, and getting the awards ceremony planned, and all the plaques and prizes secured in time etc...
We have a private forum for this stuff but you have never once posted or participated over there...maybe you only have access under your other handle I dunno but I do know I sent texts and PMs to you and Charlie and nelson with links to threads and issues so you had plenty of opportunities to bring this stuff up.
:smt005
Sincerely,
Jim
Jim, with an equal amount of respect back (obviously, I'm hoping none of this is coming across as personal), it's not like I thought this up in June and then decided to wait until now to bring it up. I saw how the last stretch of the tournament went, thought about the scoring system as a whole, and thought this might improve the tournament. But I agree, the timing on it is not ideal.
If we all decide not to adopt the changes, great. If we do, great. In the end, the tournament will run, trash will be talked, and last minute position changes will happen.
Lastly, I volunteered to be part of the committee after you asked me to help out because I, like everyone else, appreciate the obscene amount of work you put into this tournament and wanted to take some of the burden off you. If that means that me making a suggestion after being asked my thoughts is especially inconsiderate to you, then by all means, remove me. Charlie says he'll cover the stuff I was taking care of.
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Sweet, so it sounds like same rules new year. Let's do this.
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First off I want to say Thank You to the DOTY Founders and Board Members past and present. The time and effort you put into DOTY is greatly appreciated by this ocean lover who lives in the desert. I have been following the suggestions and see some great ideas, some I agree with and some I need a little time to mull over. Personally I would like to see the DOTY format remain as is it is this year. During 2016 we can take time to examine and compare rule change suggestions that the DOTY Board would implement. Like I said there are some great ideas and discussions that I would like to get a better understanding of. This is a fun, friendly, educational type of competition, it encourages us to travel, explore and experience Ma Ocean's wonders. I hope it stays that way. Whatever way the DOTY Board decides I will still participate this year and hopefully for many years to come.
Russ