NorCal Kayak Anglers

Kayak Fishing Zone => Safety First => Topic started by: Wilderness medic on May 03, 2017, 10:28:40 AM

Title: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Wilderness medic on May 03, 2017, 10:28:40 AM
I didn't know that until yesterday. A grassy barely broke the skin on my knuckle but within seconds my finger swelled up with a lot of pain. Today it's still puffy and feels like it's in a vice. Anyone know how long this lasts?
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: AlexB on May 03, 2017, 10:29:49 AM
Week or so... Ya, those spikes are no joke.


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Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Wilderness medic on May 03, 2017, 10:37:53 AM
Week or so... Ya, those spikes are no joke.


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Shit that long of pain and having trouble moving it? It's pretty hard to bend or use.

I can't believe after years and years of handling them I never knew this :smt005

(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q754/WildernessMedic/338215C3-B353-4D20-BF72-5C450229C456_zpszzpisnog.jpg) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/WildernessMedic/media/338215C3-B353-4D20-BF72-5C450229C456_zpszzpisnog.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Fish Master1 on May 03, 2017, 10:43:58 AM
Pee on it. :smt003
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Archie Marx on May 03, 2017, 11:02:41 AM
As far as I recall rockfish spines are venomous (there are venom glands). Secondly , rockfish slime contains enzymes called amino acid oxidases, some of which act like a venom. Thirdly, Staph and other bacteria resides on rockfish skin, and your skin and is a possible source of infection.

I might try a soak in a warm 1% iodine hypertonic solution (2tblspoons salt/1L+ some iodine). Or a hot compress with the same solution applied directly to the area.

I usually wash the area well, use a hot compress for a few min (if it's bad) and then keep it uncovered. So far so good.

To the best of my recollection symptoms begin to subside after no more than 72 hours and usually earlier.

Any medical professionals wanna speak up on this? I am curious too.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Lost_Anchovy on May 03, 2017, 11:46:47 AM
The answer from fm1 vs. archie are too funny. Two different fisherman two different answers.  :smt044 :smt044
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: LilRiverMan on May 03, 2017, 11:58:57 AM
  FM1 is always looking for an excuse to whip it out
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Archie Marx on May 03, 2017, 12:01:38 PM
The answer from fm1 vs. archie are too funny. Two different fisherman two different answers.  :smt044 :smt044

Not entirely different. Peeing on it = a hypertonic solution soak  :smt044
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: JohnnyAb on May 03, 2017, 12:09:53 PM
I'd rather stab myself with a fillet knife. Bleeds more, hurts less:smt013
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: crash on May 03, 2017, 12:23:19 PM
Take the eyeball of the fish that spines you, squish it and rub it on the wound.

That's the old time remedy anyway. No idea if it actually makes a difference.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Archie Marx on May 03, 2017, 12:28:12 PM
Take the eyeball of the fish that spines you, squish it and rub it on the wound.

That's the old time remedy anyway. No idea if it actually makes a difference.

Yes, hair of the dog will reset your sanguine humor complexion. If that fails you could try a good bleeding or exorcism.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: crash on May 03, 2017, 12:33:59 PM
Take the eyeball of the fish that spines you, squish it and rub it on the wound.

That's the old time remedy anyway. No idea if it actually makes a difference.

Yes, hair of the dog will reset your sanguine humor complexion. If that fails you could try a good bleeding or exorcism.

I usually start with exorcism.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Fish Master1 on May 03, 2017, 01:07:40 PM
The belief behind this remedy is that the acidic pH of urine helps break down the toxins and reduce pain,".... I just suck it up and take the pain. Nothing a few beers cant take care of. :smt005 :smt005
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: AlsHobieOutback on May 03, 2017, 01:36:10 PM
Yeah, them spines can hurt a bit!  Sara reached into my cooler once and got stuck by one.  Hand was numb for at least a whole day and swelled up a bit.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Duckguy on May 03, 2017, 04:51:54 PM
Yeah, they hurt alright. I usually apply single-malt scotch, maybe MacAllen, internally, of course...
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Archie Marx on May 03, 2017, 05:16:15 PM
The belief behind this remedy is that the acidic pH of urine helps break down the toxins and reduce pain,".... I just suck it up and take the pain. Nothing a few beers cant take care of. :smt005 :smt005

Who knew that FM1 was a regular Nick Bronsted?!  :smt002 :smt006
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Fuzzy Tom on May 03, 2017, 05:36:26 PM
Here's what worked for me when I got spined: soak your hand in the hottest water you can stand for as long as you can stand it. Of course, you don't want to scald your hand, but get it close. Found that on the web along with some mumbo-jumbo about how the toxin breaks down with heat.
  Prevention: Wear gloves, I like the nitrile working gloves (not the medical ones), and when cleaning fish, thicker gloves.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Bushy on May 03, 2017, 07:37:33 PM
Take the eyeball of the fish that spines you, squish it and rub it on the wound.

That's the old time remedy anyway. No idea if it actually makes a difference.

Yes, hair of the dog will reset your sanguine humor complexion. If that fails you could try a good bleeding or exorcism.

hehe...he heh  He said Sanguine!


Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: RBark on May 03, 2017, 07:51:36 PM
If I touch fish slime, my hands swell up and blisters and it starts peeling off everywhere.

If I get poked by a rockfish, I die then come back to life 3 days later. It's terribly inconvenient.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Vermillion on May 03, 2017, 07:56:46 PM
The best remedy is some Tri-actin.
It typically fixes any issue.
Tri-actin is the generic name its short for
 Tri-actinlikeaman.

 :smt044 :smt006
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: matanaska on May 03, 2017, 08:29:02 PM
Take the eyeball of the fish that spines you, squish it and rub it on the wound.

That's the old time remedy anyway. No idea if it actually makes a difference.

This works.  I have used it a few times
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: fishkraft on May 03, 2017, 08:30:58 PM
Leeches! You need leeches!

It'll get better, not gone, in a couple days. Hydrocortisone cream helps.


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Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: brdopry on May 03, 2017, 08:59:32 PM
Inagree with Tom, the hottest water you can take! Soak in it awhile then relax with a few beers and yer fine, feel it a tad the. Ext day but will live
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Wilderness medic on May 03, 2017, 09:35:08 PM
The best remedy is some Tri-actin.
It typically fixes any issue.
Tri-actin is the generic name its short for
 Tri-actinlikeaman.

 :smt044 :smt006

I tried that today. Got a blister, cried, and then went inside. :smt010 :smt044
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q754/WildernessMedic/94803BF7-AFE0-4744-A815-6CB4249D068D_zps3exiij16.jpg) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/WildernessMedic/media/94803BF7-AFE0-4744-A815-6CB4249D068D_zps3exiij16.jpg.html)Still swollen but it's not as frozen. Either the hot water or using it helped. Thanks.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: WingShooter on May 03, 2017, 09:42:21 PM
Pee on it. :smt003

Don't listen to him! Spray Windex on it.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Fisherman X on May 04, 2017, 06:15:40 AM
Or use that tried-and-true remedy for most ailments:
"Soak it in cider"

 :smt002
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: SuperVato on May 04, 2017, 06:27:21 AM
Or use that tried-and-true remedy for most ailments:
"Soak it in cider"

 :smt002
My hand are too big to get in cider. Are you supposed to do just the fingers or the whole hand?
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Fisherman X on May 04, 2017, 07:14:38 AM
Or use that tried-and-true remedy for most ailments:
"Soak it in cider"

 :smt002
My hand are too big to get in cider. Are you supposed to do just the fingers or the whole hand?

Not gonna touch that, Amos!  :smt003
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Wilderness medic on May 04, 2017, 07:25:54 AM
Or use that tried-and-true remedy for most ailments:
"Soak it in cider"

 :smt002
My hand are too big to get in cider. Are you supposed to do just the fingers or the whole hand?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfzxesxk_Yo
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Bushy on May 04, 2017, 08:50:59 AM
Or use that tried-and-true remedy for most ailments:
"Soak it in cider"

 :smt002
My hand are too big to get in cider. Are you supposed to do just the fingers or the whole hand?

Not gonna touch that, Amos!  :smt003

Andy?
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: BigJim on May 04, 2017, 09:17:02 AM
I've gotten plenty of pokes that have hurt for awhile...

Worst one was from a big old verm a few years ago...hurt like a SUMBITCH!!

Didn't help that a piece of the spine broke off in my palm...

 :smt013 :smt010
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Bushy on May 04, 2017, 09:55:01 PM
My worst one was on a party boat at the Farralones when I kicked someone's fish out of my way, on the deck.  Wearing sneakers and the spine went in under my toenail.  OMG.

I think black and yellows are the worst in terms of venom.  Gophers are pretty bad too.  Curiously, these are two sub-species that are favored for live rockfish, they last a long time without dying.....Wonder if there's any correlation.

Luckily, I do not get a big-time allergic reaction as described above.  Just huge aching pain for 20 minutes or so.

Bushy
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Archie Marx on May 05, 2017, 01:06:25 AM
My worst one was on a party boat at the Farralones when I kicked someone's fish out of my way, on the deck.  Wearing sneakers and the spine went in under my toenail.  OMG.

I think black and yellows are the worst in terms of venom.  Gophers are pretty bad too.  Curiously, these are two sub-species that are favored for live rockfish, they last a long time without dying.....Wonder if there's any correlation.

Luckily, I do not get a big-time allergic reaction as described above.  Just huge aching pain for 20 minutes or so.

Bushy

I asked google your question and it said this:

http://content.cdlib.org/view?docId=kt8z09n9rg&brand=calisphere&doc.view=entire_text (http://content.cdlib.org/view?docId=kt8z09n9rg&brand=calisphere&doc.view=entire_text)

I couldn't find the answer to your question, but interestingly enough... Not all spines of all rockfish are venomous, but all spines on browns and quillbacks are. People have been hospitalized for rockfish stings, but it's usually because of infection of the sting site.


Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Bushy on May 05, 2017, 11:44:06 AM
That IS interesting....
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: ryang85 on May 05, 2017, 07:08:17 PM
My worst one was on a party boat at the Farralones when I kicked someone's fish out of my way, on the deck.  Wearing sneakers and the spine went in under my toenail.  OMG.

I think black and yellows are the worst in terms of venom.  Gophers are pretty bad too.  Curiously, these are two sub-species that are favored for live rockfish, they last a long time without dying.....Wonder if there's any correlation.

Luckily, I do not get a big-time allergic reaction as described above.  Just huge aching pain for 20 minutes or so.

Bushy
Gophers and b&y rockfish both seem to lay pretty fearless inside lingcod holes and in the open compared to any other rockfish. But i know lingcod eat them because i use them for bait. 
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Uminchu Naoaki on May 05, 2017, 09:10:01 PM
As far as I recall rockfish spines are venomous (there are venom glands). Secondly , rockfish slime contains enzymes called amino acid oxidases, some of which act like a venom. Thirdly, Staph and other bacteria resides on rockfish skin, and your skin and is a possible source of infection.

I might try a soak in a warm 1% iodine hypertonic solution (2tblspoons salt/1L+ some iodine). Or a hot compress with the same solution applied directly to the area.

I usually wash the area well, use a hot compress for a few min (if it's bad) and then keep it uncovered. So far so good.

To the best of my recollection symptoms begin to subside after no more than 72 hours and usually earlier.

Any medical professionals wanna speak up on this? I am curious too.
Love Dr.ATD answer!!!


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Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Archie Marx on May 08, 2017, 02:56:13 PM
As far as I recall rockfish spines are venomous (there are venom glands). Secondly , rockfish slime contains enzymes called amino acid oxidases, some of which act like a venom. Thirdly, Staph and other bacteria resides on rockfish skin, and your skin and is a possible source of infection.

I might try a soak in a warm 1% iodine hypertonic solution (2tblspoons salt/1L+ some iodine). Or a hot compress with the same solution applied directly to the area.

I usually wash the area well, use a hot compress for a few min (if it's bad) and then keep it uncovered. So far so good.

To the best of my recollection symptoms begin to subside after no more than 72 hours and usually earlier.

Any medical professionals wanna speak up on this? I am curious too.
Love Dr.ATD answer!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did some more reading after I posted that reply, and it looks like the hot compress is the best option (with one major caveat). The reasoning is that rockfish toxin is heat labile.

The caveat is that I could find no indication as to the composition of rockfish venom, or if the venom is similar across species.  I suspect that the article was written under the ASSUMPTION that rockfish venom is heat labile. It could be a good assumption.

Does anyone know if rockfish venom composition has been studied? Does anyone have a mass spectrometer collecting dust in their garage?
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Wilderness medic on May 08, 2017, 03:05:38 PM
As far as I recall rockfish spines are venomous (there are venom glands). Secondly , rockfish slime contains enzymes called amino acid oxidases, some of which act like a venom. Thirdly, Staph and other bacteria resides on rockfish skin, and your skin and is a possible source of infection.

I might try a soak in a warm 1% iodine hypertonic solution (2tblspoons salt/1L+ some iodine). Or a hot compress with the same solution applied directly to the area.

I usually wash the area well, use a hot compress for a few min (if it's bad) and then keep it uncovered. So far so good.

To the best of my recollection symptoms begin to subside after no more than 72 hours and usually earlier.

Any medical professionals wanna speak up on this? I am curious too.
Love Dr.ATD answer!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Does anyone know if rockfish venom composition has been studied? Does anyone have a mass spectrometer collecting dust in their garage?

I'm guessing no, from the very limited information on it. It seems odd that such a widely distributed, large genus of fish that are venomous have so little info.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Archie Marx on May 08, 2017, 03:10:33 PM
Does anyone need a thesis?  :smt003

NCKA should start a research grant  :smt002
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: bioman on May 08, 2017, 03:29:49 PM
"1) Yes, heat, in whatever form, is the treatment of choice for fish venom wounds.

2) Rockfish venom has never been charactertized. I have been trying to get someone interested in this for 40 years, but to no avail.

3) It is known that the size of the venom gland at the base of the various fin spines varies with species and position of the spine. The potency may also, but this is unknown, vary among rockfish species."

(From Dr. Milton Love; More than you wanted to know about Pacific Fishes...."

Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: rockfish on May 09, 2017, 10:16:06 AM
Does anyone need a thesis?  :-D

NCKA should start a research grant  ;-)


Sounds like your PhD project, I've got a whole jar of change for the cause
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: ryang85 on May 09, 2017, 12:40:10 PM
Wait is this venom, similar to the venom on sculpins? Ive been poked by rockfish and it usualy hurts for a day or two but ive  heard scuplins can send you to the hospital if they get you good.  Sculpins arnt related to rockfish but there seems to be little info on the  internet with this venom and how to treat it. Im always super paraniod releasing scuplins because i have no clue what to do if i get stuck by one.

Angel sharks are the only other fish that make me paraniod and i usually cut the line, and thats a very justifiable fear haha
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: crash on May 09, 2017, 12:42:05 PM
Sculpins arnt related to rockfish

That's okay, sculpins aren't related to sculpins either.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Bushy on May 09, 2017, 03:45:22 PM
So hot compress is the 1st aid.  We are SOL in the kayaks then.....

B
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: polepole on May 09, 2017, 03:47:11 PM
So hot compress is the 1st aid.  We are SOL in the kayaks then.....

B

Aren't we back to peeing on it?   :smt005

-Allen
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Wldrnshntr on May 09, 2017, 04:12:14 PM
Leeches! You need leeches!

It'll get better, not gone, in a couple days. Hydrocortisone cream helps.


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WINDEX
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: ryang85 on May 09, 2017, 10:58:06 PM
Sculpins arnt related to rockfish

That's okay, sculpins aren't related to sculpins either.
Oh man, this threw me for a loop until i did a google search,  so sculpins  arnt scuplins, but sculpins are related to rockfish,


 sculpins are more related to lingcod and cabs than.

 Now who the f#ck decided to call a scorpion fish a sculpin and cause this mess i had no clue i was falling victim of...
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: crash on May 10, 2017, 07:14:51 AM
Sculpins arnt related to rockfish

That's okay, sculpins aren't related to sculpins either.
Oh man, this threw me for a loop until i did a google search,  so sculpins  arnt scuplins, but sculpins are related to rockfish,


 sculpins are more related to lingcod and cabs than.

 Now who the f#ck decided to call a scorpion fish a sculpin and cause this mess i had no clue i was falling victim of...

I'm just spitting a WAG but scoprionfish have been called sculpin for many, many years in SoCal.  I'm thinking that it was misidentified or misclassified long ago, and the name stuck.  There is a really popular fishery for scorpionfish down there and the confusing common name isn't going to change any time soon.

It's confusing though because we have numerous true sculpins up here, none of which are venomous**, most notably cabezon and irish lords.  Given how freely people move between northern and southern California, confusion was inevitable.

**The roe of cabezon (and maybe other true sculpins?) is poisonous.  Don't eat it.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: ryang85 on May 10, 2017, 09:55:24 AM
Sculpins arnt related to rockfish

That's okay, sculpins aren't related to sculpins either.
Oh man, this threw me for a loop until i did a google search,  so sculpins  arnt scuplins, but sculpins are related to rockfish,


 sculpins are more related to lingcod and cabs than.

 Now who the f#ck decided to call a scorpion fish a sculpin and cause this mess i had no clue i was falling victim of...

I'm just spitting a WAG but scoprionfish have been called sculpin for many, many years in SoCal.  I'm thinking that it was misidentified or misclassified long ago, and the name stuck.  There is a really popular fishery for scorpionfish down there and the confusing common name isn't going to change any time soon.

It's confusing though because we have numerous true sculpins up here, none of which are venomous**, most notably cabezon and irish lords.  Given how freely people move between northern and southern California, confusion was inevitable.

**The roe of cabezon (and maybe other true sculpins?) is poisonous.  Don't eat it.
See i always thought irish lords are venomous and was always super carefull while releasing them.
  And have only caught a few fake sculpins in my life so i never felt like messing with them since they were pretty small.   Very good to know
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: yakyakyak on May 10, 2017, 10:04:32 AM
So hot compress is the 1st aid.  We are SOL in the kayaks then.....

B

Aren't we back to peeing on it?   :smt005

-Allen

Hmmm..... pee in the bag and dip your hand in it  --> warm compress + ammonia   -----> two-in-one deal!  :-)


Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: SanddabMan on May 11, 2017, 03:59:46 PM
This'll make me sound dumb, but I was young at the time. Pulled a massive quillback up on my poke pole and took several spines all the way through my hand. It curled up in a red hot ball and was paralyzed and inflamed until the next day and ached for a while. That was miserable. I've had a few rough days on kelp and grass rockfish off of Santa Barbara, as well.  I have a great fish grabber and have relied on nets, gaffs and harpoons since those times.
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: BigJim on May 11, 2017, 04:12:07 PM
Off topic but maybe not...since Gio is about to embark on an epic Alaska to Mexico road trip...worth remembering that apparently wolf eels have sharp teeth and strong jaws...

 :scratch:

 :smt005

 :smt008

 :smt006

Sincerely,

Jim
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: Wilderness medic on May 11, 2017, 05:39:43 PM
Wow a wolf eel did that? Their teeth look wicked, but dull like a molar. Good to know they can inflict damage
Title: Re: Apparently rockfish are venomous
Post by: BigJim on May 11, 2017, 10:01:34 PM
Wow a wolf eel did that? Their teeth look wicked, but dull like a molar. Good to know they can inflict damage

Felt like it was being crushed in a vice...lucky that I was able to rip the thumb out before it did more damage I think...got a few cool scars still lol

Weird looking at older footage... GoPro quality has gotten a lot better in the past few years!!

https://youtu.be/5OZgJ15iw08

 :smt006

Sincerely,

Jim