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Topic: Multi-Marlin Madness!  (Read 7955 times)

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Danglin

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Thanks Jon and Boogie-D,

 I'm all Hobie with 2 Outbacks and 2 sports for my twin Boys,

 always thought the AI would be too complicated,  looks like that's not true.

 Should be able to convice my wife we need to go to big Island, Have Relatives there too,

 have to make it happen, and Hook Up ....

 Boogie-D.... Do you use shark shields when you go out? ....... Danglin
There are 3 Types of people in the world,,,
                          
                 The Sheep, The Sheep Dog & The Wolf,
                                                                         
      Which are You ,,,

2006 NCKA Shark Fishing Tournament Champion    
2nd Moutcha Bay, BC. 2006 "Tyee" Surfing Contest
ELK 07  1st Place Loser
HMB 09 3rd Place
HMB 09 Sardine Champion
2009-2016 Northern California HOW Coordinator

Love Baja…  :smt055


ROCKET

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Aloha friends,

        Those were some great points about motherships, motors, and sails. I think a record book would be very complicated but do-able. I just dont know who painted the picture of easy fishing in Hawaii. Maybe Kona but not Oahu. Its a far paddle out, far paddle in, Tiger sharks, GWS, currents, trade winds, and waves. We have a lot of species to catch but it is NEVER easy. Aint that right Boogie? FYI: I would be in the "PURE" category. Aloha, Rocket


Bluewater Jon

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Hey guys, that is interesting, yeah I did not know that re: Oahu. I only have experience on the Big Isalnd, and even at that, I have only launched out of like 4 spots.

 I don't think I have heard that anyone, especially myself, has ever suggested , for record keeping purposes, that one should be able to hook from a boat and land in the yak. Yes I have done that several times but only as a kind of personal project to see if I could pull up a triple digit tuna, and then slay it with my own hands.

Moving on though guys, let's think about, if you had the one category with the power assisted kayak fishing, do you not agree with me that there is a huge variation in what could be in this category, and a potential for, uh, some distortions?

Again, picture the scenarios: getting dropped off in a certain spot, handed a baited rod, and paddling on your own for a couple of hours while the mothership stands by. That's basically what the mothership trips that I know are about, when guides or large boats take 3-12 clients out and either daisy chain the yaks behind the boat, or if the boat is big enough, keep them all on board. You know, you paddle around, it could be 5 minutes, it could be 90 minutes before yoyu get hooked up, or never.

Then, you have the other scenario, where one could cruise for miles in a boat with a yak ready, until they sight a fish on the surface, tell the captain to get them as close to the fish as they can, then they plop their yak in the water as fast as they can, clamber in, "within seconds" they are hooked up....and that would count as a power assisted kayak fish, unless it is clearly stated that there has to be a minimum amount of paddling. In fact, if I have read the reports of how some fish have been caught correctly, some people are counting fish caught in this manner as records right now.

Now, I'm not saying that wouldn't be fun, or I wouldn't do it, I'm just saying, for record keeping purposes, maybe there should be more categories, or some things just not count at all (some things obviously would never be included, like the hook in a boat, land in a yak). In my own thinking, for this power-assisted category, there should be a minimum amount of time that people have to paddle before they hook up. That would discourage people from chasing down, or sighting fish, from a moving boat, getting in the water rapidly, and then saying, since they technically were in the kayak when the hook was set, that that is a kayak caught fish that can be compared with someone that was making, at least in my own opinion, a more genuine attempt to use their kayak as a fishing vessel.

Of course I may be totally off base here! The odds are at least 50-50, even on my best days, that my thinking is screwy :smt110


ROCKET

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Aloha again friends,

      First off, Boogie you have become a respected kayak angler on Oahu. To me not letting you use a sail is much like not letting someone use the peddles. I dont have any problem with this and welcome you and Aloha Dan and others in the tourney. In actuality you are fishing much more like the Hawaiians did; navigating their canoes with sails in the wind. I think this is a wonderful thing and will sail when the times is right, maybe on a Kahuku to Waianae journey with you next year! That other sailor on the Big Island was Steve Harris. He is an incredible paddler and sailor. He is well into his 60s I am sure. I envy his physical strength and kid-like passion for the sport. He ranks with you and I as one of Oahus top kayak anglers.

      I would love to go to the South Pacific and tackle the 100 lb Uluas, Sailfish, and Dog tooth tunas there. I am working on something with Ocean Kayak. Hopefully I have more on this soon.

      Bluewater Jon has a great point about motorized kayaking and motherships. Even after he has used this to complete his own projects, he still understands (for records reasons) why this would make things complicated. Lets not make it simple for someone to just get in a yak after being dumped in the water from a mothership and then break a hard earned, paddled record. It would take away from the integrity of kayak fishing. The way we do it makes any catch that more satisfying. And if your going for a record, shouldnt it be just as hard? At that rate records could be broke every weekend :smt011. Two divisions : sailing and paddling :smt001.

       Having said my peace, I would love the chance to fight any Tuna, Ulua, or Marlin the way you have Bluewater. I understand what you mean about just bringing the beast up on a kayak! What you do is awesome stuff. One of these days I WILL assemble Kayak Fishings World Circuit Tour. Then we will all travel, fish, compete, and eat together. Good stuff huh? Trust me I am working on this. Aloha, Rocket


Bluewater Jon

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Ok man, I trust you! Good to know that someone is working on getting kayakers to have exotic vacations! I don't know if the world is ready to pay the tab for it, but if it does, please scribble my name on the list!


Danglin

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Right on Guys!!!!

  I like the way you Think.......... Here for the Long Run :smt002 ...... Danglin
There are 3 Types of people in the world,,,
                          
                 The Sheep, The Sheep Dog & The Wolf,
                                                                         
      Which are You ,,,

2006 NCKA Shark Fishing Tournament Champion    
2nd Moutcha Bay, BC. 2006 "Tyee" Surfing Contest
ELK 07  1st Place Loser
HMB 09 3rd Place
HMB 09 Sardine Champion
2009-2016 Northern California HOW Coordinator

Love Baja…  :smt055


Bluewater Jon

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Hey guys I have been thinking and thinking about records and such. Not for me personally, at least right now,  because I have no fish in contention for any records, but rather, about what should constitute a record, and how can we all work together to create a meaningful system that can be used to determine records. You know, for the sport of kayak fishing.

 As I stated above, I think with so many inherent problems and variability in determining how much help a kayak angler can get in landing a fish that may be considered a record, it's important to establish guidelines and making sure they are followed for 1.amount of help getting there by boat, motor, or wind power, 2.minimum amount of paddling required before hookup to prevent sighting, plopping in and hooking up rapidly, thereby reducing the meaningful role that the kayak plays in the hookup process, 3. how much help the angler can get in landing the fish, in the "end game", ie- can a person in another yak or nearby boat gaff, shoot, net, or otherwise assist the kayaker with the fish.

 I think that to keep things simple, meaningful,consistent, and measurable, that the only solution is to have the angler have to launch with no assistance from land, and have no assistance along the way- at any part. Not only that, I think they should only be allowed to paddle. How else are you going to regulate how big their sail is, and isn't there some point at which you have to call that a sailboat or some combination thereof? I addition, what's to prevent someone from coming up with a contraption that is more like a sailboat than a kayak and then calling it a kayak when they put their sail down and fish? What's to prevent someone from keeping their sail up and trolling a lure or bait the whole time, under wind power, and never really using their paddle? Someone's word? Maybe that would be ok...or maybe not.

Otherwise we will never be comparing apples and apples and the records will have no significance, it will be just a list of opinions and "look what I did's" that there is no common agreement There has to be a level playing field, with very clearly defined rules as to what can be used, so that the rules have meaning. Otherwise people will inevitably submit stuff, if not already, certainly in the future, that will seem strange and barely within the rules, and if rules aren't set up now, you cant' tell them later that they can't submit.
  One other thing is, determining weight. Scales are so easy to get that unless the fish is being released, there is really no excuse not to have the fish weighed. If you can't get to a certified scale, then put the fish on the best scale you got, take multiple pics from different angles, ( and of the scale with the fish on it),or if you are releasing the fish, take multiple pics with reference points, maybe a soft tape measure near the fish, so that later on, a "panel" of people who have no vested interest in how much the fish weighs, and who have a lot of experience with weighing fish in that species and size range, are giving input (as opposed to just landing them and never weighing them, which they do in certain parts of Baja, I can personally attest to).

Another solution to consider is to take girth and length measurements if you really can't get to a scale. There are pretty reliable formulas for at least some of the species out there that can help people get close to the weight of the fish. The main point is that there has to be a reliable source that is verifiable. Pics and measurements, if not scales, must play a role, and unless the angler has a certified scale weight, they should, in my opinion, submit the pics and evidence and seek input from other people, rather than reporting a weight. Submit the evidence and let others be the judge. Otherwise there will be pissing matches with people having to say "I don't agree with that" and then the angler will get p.o'd. If not that, people will be thinking that the reported weight is wrong in their heads anyway, and isn't the goal to have a record that the greatest # of people accept?
   
Ok what do you all think of these ideas? Again I have no fish in consideration, but I find this topic intriguing, and I think that if anyone is seriously interested in putting any work towards a site or a reference that keeps track of record kayak fish, that it is worth it to be as specific as possible, and have as much healthy debate as possible, before it is set up, so that a record will have meaning.

I think there should be, if there was a book or site devoted to this stuff, would be a section for "notable catches", and in this section, an angler could submit their fish, and they would also have to be very specific in their submission about how they got to the place where the fish was landed, how much time they spent paddling prior to hookup, how much assistance they received at any point during the fight, especially at the end game/landing of the fish.

I don't have any fish in contention. The biggest fish I landed paddling from shore with no assistance was a 64.5 pound ulua in Kona, but I know that Steven and at least one other guy have landed bigger ones.

Take care and look forward to your responses.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 10:54:07 AM by Bluewater Jon »


SBD

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Kayak fishing records should be set while kayak fishing.  No motors, no assistance of any kind.  I you can't land it yourself, then you didn't land it.  PURE.


Bluewater Jon

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scwafish, I agree totally. Launch from shore, paddle power only, hook, fight, land with no assistance, and paddle back the same way.

In my opinion it's a paddling thing only for records, otherwise what's to stop someone from having a hybrid kayak/sail thing, and what's to stop them from trolling while sailing? At what point does one draw the line and say that a craft is a kayak with sails, or a craft is a sailing kayak, or a sailing craft that has features of a kayak? How about if someone puts a mast in a kayak? Slippery slope in my opinion, which will only lead to confusion and controversy- plus it's not easy to determine how much thge sails played a role. Like, did you troll into the fish under sail power, how much paddling was actually done, and at what stage of the voyage, etc.

  I think the point is to have a record that is universally accepted by kayakers. Most kayakers paddle. Having a pic with a fish on a yak, that suggests to the viewer that the guy got there by paddling. Otherwise, show the pic, with the angler and the fish, and the yak, with sails raised, so that people can see that sails played a part.

You know what might be a good idea is for someone to create a poll and get it answered by as many people as possible on as many sites as possible. Again this is of course just my .02.
Take care guys,
Jon


ScottThornley

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One thing that I don't miss whatsoever from my rock climbing days are the ethiks rantz (sp). The whole mothership vs purely paddle powered vs human powered vs no external (sail/battery) power vs land and subdue from a kayak with no external help vs land and subdue and allow an external craft to assist with transport of fish to port etc... It's the same ole trad vs sport, to bolt or not to bolt, free vs aid all over again. Blechhh!!!!!

I swear, I'm capsizing the next person that starts talking dedicated kayak fishing records while on the water. And if you think that we're at a disadvantage compared to powerboats, well tell that to the folks fishing from the shore or piers.

Scott


Bluewater Jon

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Scott, I can appreciate that viewpoint. I don't have any fish up for records, I just thought it an interesting and worthy discussion. Ironically, I was browsing an ulua shorefishing site in Hawaii awhile back, and they have similar discussions as to what should count- but the things they are talking about are, is it fair to swim a bait out, and is it fair to kayak a bait out! So no matter your style, people will hash the details out. Prior to two weeks ago, I have not really seen a serious discussion, or much of a discussion at all on the matter, and never had anyone bring it up when I was around. Maybe because I am usually by myself, I dunno.
Cheers,
Jon


polepole

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IMO, handling a large fish from a small boat (kayak!) is way more difficult than any method use to get there in the first place.

There will always be rules in record keeping, and pushing the envelope of those rules, without violating them, AND catching big fish, is the name of the game.

However, no one remembers the record holders anyway.  Well, except for Candace Meyer, holder of multiple line class records.

-Allen





mooch

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Kayak fishing records should be set while kayak fishing.  No motors, no assistance of any kind.  I you can't land it yourself, then you didn't land it.  PURE.


I totally agree with you Sean  :smt045 There's nothing better than catching a big fish under your own steam  :worship :headbang:


Bluewater Jon

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Boogie-D, If you fish with 10% of the passion that you show in your posts, you must really be a total blast to fish with! Dude if I am there on the islands soon we will definitely fish-and launch from shore! If you are ever here on the mainland look me up too. Hey by the way, I had originally started this thread with an excerpt of a full story that I was waiting to put on my website. Well, it's all there now, complete with pics of the first and only Mexican National to land a marlin from a kayak, a man known to his peers (and soon to millions of kayak groupies across the Baja Peninsula) as the brave and mighty Fernando.
Here is the link to the story:

Kayak Fishing Frenzy: Five Marlin in One Day!
http://www.bluewaterjon.com/story/story7.html

Cheers guys!
Bluewater Jon



ScottThornley

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I have deleted all my post related to the record matter. I posted the same question on three different web sites and spent days replying and talking to people. record records records who need them anyways. it will be essential for the growth of this sport. i had some big discussions with people who mothership on a regular basis they believe there record should stand. not talikning about blue water jon who has been an advocate for the so called "pure kayaker". where do we draw the line on sailing yaks. definatley the hobie ai is on a whole other level. here in hawaii there are many sailing kayakers. they are simple in design no amas, small sail, no daggers. me i paddle when its calm like today. tommorow the winds will be just right i will sail. when i sail i do not touch paddle they stay in hull. i can troll lures. i can troll bait i can go out on days you will quiver with your paddle on the shore. some day i will mothership with blue water john and jim sammons. I will support anykind of attempt to keep good records. with the sport growing so fast and so many competitions and so many mothership trips and so many sailors. we have to make some kind of rules. most competitions are paddle out paddle in. there are some that rely on mothershipping. if we cant come to agreement then the records mean nothing and our sport looses legitamcy. I am not really trying to take a stance one way or another. i just like to know where i stand. if we are members of different fishing teams and sponsored to fish against eachother for the sake of competition where do we stand. some of these contest will be filmed by espn while in fiji fishing the proffesion kayak fishings world tour. some of these contest will be held from boats. others will be from land. sailing well thats a whole diffeent thing. for the sake of competition and our futures in this sport. it will be up to us to really determin how these records will be kept. I would support a only 1 class. paddle out, fish, catch, land, solo paddle in. i do this all the time no problem. however guys like jim who mother ship and catch sails on a regular in baja believe firmly there records should stand. they even use other kayakers to help land the sails. so if we dont unite and make some rules the sport cant really grow. we dont even know what were shooting for or what were trying to achieve. as a team rider and sponsored i am obligated to be the best fisherman i can be. it is expected of me to be in contetion for records. what are they? where are they? what are the rules? we have got to do something that we can all agree on. rules that are fair. we have got to have something to strive for. if there is anything i could do to help support good record keeping and the growth of kayak fishing as a world class sport let me know. aloha

I generally refrain from making comments about spelling or punctuation, but just feel I need to step in this time. So please accept my apologies in advance for bringing up grammar, especially as I certainly am no shining light in that department. That said, I can read about 3 of your sentences before I give up, simply due to the monolithic nature of your posts. Paragraphs are your friend.


Before I gave up, I saw this:
Quote
it will be essential for the growth of this sport.

I have to strongly disagree. Some folks certainly care about kayak specific records. Just as some folks are all wound up in AOTY. But there are a lot of folks out there, catching a lot of fish from kayaks, that could not care less about kayak fish records, tournament results, or angler of the year standings. So while competition does drive a small part of any sport, most are merely happy participants. It is this quiet majority that actually drives growth.

Regards,
Scott





 

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