NorCal Kayak Anglers

General => Fish Talk => Topic started by: Malibu_Two on July 08, 2017, 10:05:52 PM

Title: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Malibu_Two on July 08, 2017, 10:05:52 PM
Has anyone ever experienced bitter, almost bloody tasting California halibut meat? I notice this every so often. I think it's the belly meat.

Would this have anything to do with handling or preparation, or just a fish here and a fish there for no apparent reason? I always bleed and gill my fish immediately.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Andrew
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: DG on July 08, 2017, 10:30:14 PM
That sounds awful.  Have not had the problem but curious if others have. 
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Malibu_Two on July 09, 2017, 07:21:56 AM
That sounds awful.  Have not had the problem but curious if others have.

Yeah, it's pretty gross, but like I said, it only seems to be the belly meat, and only with some fish.
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Eddie on July 09, 2017, 08:04:16 AM
I found this.

https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/13026/odd-flavor-in-some-white-fish-how-to-predict

Ikejime, running a wire down spine through hole in head, we use an ice pick and a piano wire, can prevent lactic acid from leaching into the meat, which causes rigor mortis, from occurring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikejime

You've inspired me, if i ever catch a fish :smt005, to maintain this technique as often as possible and to master it.  Difficult to focus on it on the kayak.  I would vomit during the process unless I can get over my swaying disease. :smt006
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Malibu_Two on July 09, 2017, 08:12:38 AM
Sounds like exactly what I'm talking about. I think it might have to do with blood or guts making contact with the meat, which would explain why it occurs mostly in the belly meat.
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Archie Marx on July 09, 2017, 08:27:29 AM
I found this.

https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/13026/odd-flavor-in-some-white-fish-how-to-predict

Ikejime, running a wire down spine through hole in head, we use an ice pick and a piano wire, can prevent lactic acid from leaching into the meat, which causes rigor mortis, from occurring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikejime

You've inspired me, if i ever catch a fish :smt005, to maintain this technique as often as possible and to master it.  Difficult to focus on it on the kayak.  I would vomit during the process unless I can get over my swaying disease. :smt006

Really? How does denervation reduce anaerobic production of ATP from glycogen?
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Eddie on July 09, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
From my info from a trusted japanese chef friend, running the wire severs the vessels in the spinal column that release the atp into the meat, so there are no vessels to allow the distribution of the lactic acid.  The more I think about it, the brainkill halts the nerve function and the wire severs the spinal vessels.  I'm not sure what body fluids travel in the spine but I'm guessing all.  If you find a better explanation I would prefer it.  I'm not a biology guy. :smt006
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: CptSloppywood on July 09, 2017, 09:40:50 AM
I use all my belly meat for ceviche. Always comes out good.
But I have never caught a California halibut outside of Tomales Bay. Maybe they taste different else where?I dunno?
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: krusty on July 09, 2017, 11:24:48 AM
Did you remove the blood line?
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Eddie on July 09, 2017, 12:18:43 PM
Did you remove the blood line?
i do in the filleting process
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Archie Marx on July 09, 2017, 12:22:43 PM
From my info from a trusted japanese chef friend, running the wire severs the vessels in the spinal column that release the atp into the meat, so there are no vessels to allow the distribution of the lactic acid.  The more I think about it, the brainkill halts the nerve function and the wire severs the spinal vessels.  I'm not sure what body fluids travel in the spine but I'm guessing all.  If you find a better explanation I would prefer it.  I'm not a biology guy. :smt006

Yeah, so without getting into the nitty gritty.. that doesn't really make any sense. Im digging around to see if there is anything to the denervation method.
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Malibu_Two on July 09, 2017, 01:20:42 PM
Did you remove the blood line?
i do in the filleting process

Me too.
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Eddie on July 09, 2017, 01:41:46 PM
From my info from a trusted japanese chef friend, running the wire severs the vessels in the spinal column that release the atp into the meat, so there are no vessels to allow the distribution of the lactic acid.  The more I think about it, the brainkill halts the nerve function and the wire severs the spinal vessels.  I'm not sure what body fluids travel in the spine but I'm guessing all.  If you find a better explanation I would prefer it.  I'm not a biology guy. :smt006

Yeah, so without getting into the nitty gritty.. that doesn't really make any sense. Im digging around to see if there is anything to the denervation method.
Thanks, I would like to know if the Japanese are legit this way, I know that if the process is done well, for Ahi, it raises the price dramatically compared to a non ikejime Ahi, and if it is done not well, it lowers the price below a non ikejime Ahi. I have seen photos of ikejime fillets next to non ikejime fillets and there is quite a color difference.
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Tote on July 09, 2017, 09:06:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoPTTVkL6s0
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Eddie on July 09, 2017, 09:54:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoPTTVkL6s0
Seems second nature to this guy.  I'm sure it has some benefit...
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Scurvy on July 11, 2017, 08:56:35 AM
I'm no biologist, so the following is based on my rather old memories and from the YouTube vids I've seen on the topic.

Clearly, the decapitation is the actual kill. The ikejime is all about a quick & highly effective bleeding, and we can see near the end of the video that the processed fish are substantially bled out. This appears to be more than I get when I rip the gills.  The parallel benefit is that the method also denervates the basal muscular controls which originate in the spinal cord, not the brain, and this shuts down the processes that lead to the lactic acid release and take up (more or less).

My understanding is the wire pierces the fascial membrane(s) along the spine which acts as the blood reservoir and provides a clear channel for its exit.


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Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: fishshim on July 11, 2017, 09:13:02 AM
Ikejime. Ikejime (活け締め) or Ikijime (活き締め) is a method of paralyzing fish to maintain the quality of its meat. The technique originated in Japan, but is now in widespread use. ... Furthermore, the blood contained in the fish flesh retracts to the gut cavity, which produces a better coloured and flavoured fillet.
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: crash on July 11, 2017, 09:24:15 AM
It refers both to brain spiking and spinal cord destruction. Brain spiking is what I do. There's a guide for where to place your spike here:

http://www.ikijime.com
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Eddie on July 11, 2017, 10:29:33 AM
I'm grateful for the confirmation of effectiveness. Now how to aciheive on kayak without vomiting from looking down too long,  If you were to perform any part of this process aboard a kayak what would you do?
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: NowhereMan on July 11, 2017, 05:49:28 PM
To the original question... Do you use a gaff? If so, depending on where the gaff penetrates, seems like you might pierce some internal organ. That could result in a bad taste, especially if the fish was gaffed near the belly.
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Fisherman X on July 11, 2017, 08:12:33 PM
Ikejime. Ikejime (活け締め) or Ikijime (活き締め) is a method of paralyzing fish to maintain the quality of its meat. The technique originated in Japan, but is now in widespread use. ... Furthermore, the blood contained in the fish flesh retracts to the gut cavity, which produces a better coloured and flavoured fillet.

A knife, ice pick or screwdriver can be used, but these folks have some cool specialty tools:

http://japantackle.com/tools-and-others/tools/extreme-ikijime.html

http://www.anglers-secrets.com/product/04cooking/ike-jime-wire-combo-long/
Title: Re: Bitter, bloody tasting California halibut
Post by: Hchoy on July 12, 2017, 01:19:37 AM
When gutting the fish, you want to avoid puncturing  the gall bladder. It's filled with nasty smelling and awful tasting bile. That could be the cause of the bitter tasting belly meat.