NorCal Kayak Anglers

Kayak Zone => Kayaks => Hobie Kayaks => Topic started by: Great Bass 2 on January 12, 2014, 07:03:16 PM

Title: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on January 12, 2014, 07:03:16 PM
Well I kind of blew off this thread http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=45160.msg504715#msg504715 but when Etienne told me he broke a pedal shaft in less than 1 year and Keith said he also broke one, I did some research. What I found was that this is a problem with the hollow pedal shaft V2 Mirage drive. The V1 Mirage drive had a solid aluminum pedal shaft and had almost no failures. You can still buy the V1 pedal shafts but you will be in $60 for a pair and they are aluminum. I go way offshore and it would be a nightmare to have the wind die and have a Mirage drive failure. I bought some stainless steel tubing from online metals for about $10 and $40 in drill bits and now have stainless steel pedal shafts which I have complete confidence in. I was talking to Chuck at at the ISE and he said "no big deal, just drill some holes"  :smt005 :smt005, actually with a hand held drill it was a bitch and took me 5 hours to complete the project.  :smt013 :smt013 For the other saltwater big game hunters, this is something you want to do. It is not corrosion, it is metal fatigue. Your pedal shafts will fail, it is only a matter of time.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Salty. on January 12, 2014, 07:49:27 PM
nice work Scott!  what are the v2 shafts made of?
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on January 12, 2014, 08:16:08 PM
nice work Scott!  what are the v2 shafts made of?

They are aluminum. Thick too, but not thick enough. Ill post up some pictures. On the Hobie site, someone analyzed the metal and found it would only take 100# of pressure to make it begin to fail. If you peddle hard like Rob and Etienne, it isn't hard to break them. Doesn't seem to matter about the hull/drag, failures occur across all hull types. I peddle really hard too but haven't broke one but didn't want to risk a trip to the Soquel Hole and have a mechanical failure. The SS is good looking too.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Salty. on January 12, 2014, 08:22:54 PM
That's cool. if you could throw up a link with the specifications of the stainless that you got it would be much appreciated!
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: polepole on January 12, 2014, 08:26:13 PM
If you do the math on the V1 vs. the V2, the solid V1 is only 25% stronger.  A mechanical engineer on NWKA did the math.  Going to stainless is getting you the biggest improvement if you chose the correct stainless.  Which exact stainless alloy did you get Scott?  There are some aluminum alloys that are stronger than some stainless steel alloys.

-Allen
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on January 13, 2014, 06:32:29 AM
If you do the math on the V1 vs. the V2, the solid V1 is only 25% stronger.  A mechanical engineer on NWKA did the math.  Going to stainless is getting you the biggest improvement if you chose the correct stainless.  Which exact stainless alloy did you get Scott?  There are some aluminum alloys that are stronger than some stainless steel alloys.

-Allen

I used T-308 stainless steel. I also bought a pair of solid aircraft grade aluminum bars which is stronger than steel. When you buy aluminum it doesn't come anodized so corrosion will be a concern.  http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=524&step=4&showunits=inches&id=22&top_cat=1
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on January 13, 2014, 06:50:05 AM
I think that "only 25%" stronger refers to a test between solid and tube aluminum drive shafts when both are new. The drive pin hole will wear faster in hollow aluminum than in solid and thus over time the solid metal will be stronger than 25%. If I were to go the SS route I would look into solid not tube SS. I suspect that solid aircraft grade aluminum is stronger than hollow tube SS of the same dimensions. The main obstacle to solid SS is cutting threads in the stuff for pedals unless one has some pretty good machine equipment.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on January 13, 2014, 06:59:25 AM
Yeah, I would hold off doing what I did until I stress test the shafts.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Jedmo on January 13, 2014, 07:13:29 AM
Nicely done there Scott. Something to think about having for sure, like you said, it is a matter of time.

Jedmo
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: polepole on January 13, 2014, 07:19:50 AM
I think that "only 25%" stronger refers to a test between solid and tube aluminum drive shafts when both are new. The drive pin hole will wear faster in hollow aluminum than in solid and thus over time the solid metal will be stronger than 25%. If I were to go the SS route I would look into solid not tube SS. I suspect that solid aircraft grade aluminum is stronger than hollow tube SS of the same dimensions. The main obstacle to solid SS is cutting threads in the stuff for pedals unless one has some pretty good machine equipment.

Yeah, it's the hole that is the weak link.  I think I saw where someone used a u-bolt in an emergency repair.  It's a concept worth exploring, in order to not have a hole.

-Allen
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on January 13, 2014, 11:18:07 AM
Here is a how to do it.

http://www.vyak.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16203

I have not found any reports on the V1 pedal shaft breaking only V2. So the easiest thing is to buy a set of V1 shafts. Drilling the holes wasn't easy or fun.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Archie Marx on January 13, 2014, 11:21:56 AM
This is probably the first thing I will do when I get my revo 13.  Back when I used to ride my bike, I used to crack a bottom bracket every 3 months or so :smt009.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on January 13, 2014, 11:48:12 AM
OK. I posted my first attempt to build my own drive shafts a few months back. I used tube wall aluminum which turned out to be inadequate so I decided to just buy a set of threaded for bike pedal solid shafts from Hobie. The reason I am revisiting this topic is that SS has been brought up and in my first experiments to make a threaded for bike pedal shaft I took some old bike crank arms, cut then down to a proper size, drilled a couple holes through the crank arms and shafts, and bolted arms to shafts. That part worked great and would also be a way to set up solid (3/3x3/4) SS with pedals without having to thread solid SS. This system does mean a change from stock Hobie plastic pedals to bike pedals. A definite upgrade in my opinion.

Hope the pic comes through.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Pat R. on January 14, 2014, 09:20:43 AM
Thanks for the info Scott, will be looking into making a set for my self…. better safe then sorry.

PatR
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: EWB on January 14, 2014, 11:18:34 AM
what about filling the tube with something to make them solid? not sure what that would be but i wonder if that would be a less expensive/labor intensive process
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: SteveS doesn't kayak anymore on January 14, 2014, 11:44:08 AM
Back when I used to ride my bike, I used to crack a bottom bracket every 3 months or so :smt009.

how'd you crack a bottom bracket?
i've fried bearings, but only seen bunged BBs from people crashing
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on January 14, 2014, 11:56:08 AM
Filling the shaft tube is possible but acquiring the right size of aluminum stock to tap in the shaft tube to make a snug fit would be difficult. The interior of the shaft is unlikely to be a standard size. Also, if one did the infill the material should be aluminum. I think SS in close contact with AL would lead to electrolysis. All in all, it is probably cheaper, and certainly less time consuming for most of us to just order the V1 solid shaft arms from Hobie. I really don't understand why they went from solid to tube aluminum drive shafts given their pin hole adjustment design.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: polepole on January 15, 2014, 08:09:59 PM
Filling the shaft tube is possible but acquiring the right size of aluminum stock to tap in the shaft tube to make a snug fit would be difficult. The interior of the shaft is unlikely to be a standard size. Also, if one did the infill the material should be aluminum. I think SS in close contact with AL would lead to electrolysis. All in all, it is probably cheaper, and certainly less time consuming for most of us to just order the V1 solid shaft arms from Hobie. I really don't understand why they went from solid to tube aluminum drive shafts given their pin hole adjustment design.

Since you bring up electrolysis, what is the metal to which the shaft join?  Would there possibly be an electrolysis issue here?

-Allen
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Joel on January 15, 2014, 09:04:50 PM


Since you bring up electrolysis, what is the metal to which the shaft join?  Would there possibly be an electrolysis issue here?

-Allen

I'd definitely use some anti-seize on the stainless even if the other parts are stainless.  I have had stainless seize up way too many times over the years.

On another note, I have been looking my pedals over after seeing all the other failures and so far, so good.  Maybe I don't have the leg strength that the rest of you have! :smt003

Anyways, I plan to just weld a solid aluminum insert into mine at some point PRIOR to failure...
See image:
Red = drill out
Blue = new insert with ID of existing

This should keep the hole from "ovaling" out which is the likely reason for failure.

Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on January 18, 2014, 03:15:35 PM
Allen

I think the current contact points of SS to aluminum, the drive pin and the attachment of drive shaft to mirage unit, can just be rinsed with fresh water after a salt water outing to prevent electrolysis. An infill metal in the shaft would be harder to purge. You raised the idea of possibly using a clamp instead of a drive pin hole in the shaft. Good concept to fit Hobie's decision to use tube aluminum for a drive arm. I've come to realize that Hobie doesn't think in terms of how they can better meet the needs of maybe less than five percent of their customers, the hardcore ocean fishermen. Their designs are meant to meet the vast recreational market who are occasional users of product.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Bird on February 03, 2014, 08:36:31 AM
Just cracked my first pedal shaft this weekend - V2 right at the drive pin after 2 years of use.  Probably will try a V1 shaft for now.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on March 08, 2014, 05:16:22 PM
Got some V1 shafts and a pair of BMX pedals from Sport Chalet for $7.00. Packed the corrosion prone areas with Yamaha marine grease. Added some bungees to keep the pedals oriented. Couldn't get the nut off the end of the pedal so couldn't pack the bearings in grease. Will have to go with periodic corrosion X. I am going to have my custom SS shafts as backup and use the V1 shafts as my primary. The V1 shafts are the way to go, IMHO.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on March 09, 2014, 10:10:43 AM
Pedals and V1 drive shaft arms look good. At $7.50 a pair for BMX pedals they can be replaced yearly as a small expense. There will be more and more guys on this forum choosing  to go to the old style solid shaft drive arms to replace the hollow V 2 shafts that are prone to breakage after extended usage. Hobie should offer a cost free replacement of shaft arms for those who have busted theirs at the pin hole drive arm adjustment area.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on March 15, 2014, 04:11:27 PM
Just a another thought about why the V2 shafts fail. The V2 shafts appear to be painted and the paint comes off with friction pretty easily leaving bare aluminum exposed to salt water. The V1 shafts appear to be anodized.

Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: SeaWeed on March 15, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
I can't put the real heavy pressure you younger guys can. But has anyone looked into some of the poly plastics that are out there. I would hate to have a failure as well. But I got towed off a lake because i was out after it closed . It was really a nice ride. I think we were doing about 20. The salt to be towed in would be a different ball game. Can't wait to get on it soon. There is an extensive thread on this subject, in the hobie forum.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: NowhereMan on March 26, 2014, 08:38:13 PM
I've been wanting to experiment with slightly longer cranks on my Adventure, so a couple weeks ago, I bought a pair of 15" pieces of 3/4 square (solid) 6061-T6 aluminum from Gorilla Metals for about $11:
http://www.gorillametals.com/
The standard Hobie cranks are about 13".

I'd planned to borrow a drill press and have at it. But, I've got too many other projects, so I asked my gunsmith neighbor if he could do it. After taking some careful measurements, he insists that to get an exact fit, he'd need metric sizes for all of the holes, and he doesn't have any metric cutters. And I definitely want a tight fit, especially for the pedal axle.

So, any of you who have drilled holes, what size bits did you use, and did you get a factory-like snug fit?

Thanks.



Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on March 27, 2014, 07:49:07 AM
I think that standard bits will do fine. I used them on my attempt to make crank arms out of tube aluminum stock. The holes were tight. Forgot the size but just place bits in the stock Hobie shaft holes till you find one that is snug and then use that bit for the solid stock aluminum. I think your biggest difficulty will be threading 9/16 left and right hand threads for pedals. You can drill a hole to be able to use Hobie's press fit stock pedals but if you are going to this much effort making standard bike pedal screw ins gives you the option of many different two sided pedal faces including clip ins.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on March 27, 2014, 08:39:54 AM
This may be a good alternative for those making their own drive shafts. It bypasses having to thread solid stock for pedals or deal with press fitting Hobie's pedal axle to the drive arm. Used crank sets for bikes are around and usually cheap. Only the crank arms are needed. Aluminum crank arms cut easy with a hacksaw and can be rounded with a grinder of some sorts. All that is needed to attach the cutoff bike crank arms are two bolts per arm and nuts. Many options there. The only other holes to drill are the drive pin adjustment hole and bottom bolt hole. 5/16 for drive pin and 5/8 for bottom bolt. A plus of using bike crank arms is getting 3/4 inch more room between drive arm and foot while pedaling. Good luck on this.

Charles
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on March 27, 2014, 08:49:06 AM
Sorry. 3/8 not 5/8 on bottom bolt hole
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: dilbeck on March 27, 2014, 10:43:29 AM
Had a mirage drive failure slightly different from Scott's.  The bolt for the pedal pulled through the shaft.  Will have to post pictures and see if anybody else has had the same thing happen.

Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on March 27, 2014, 01:28:47 PM
Had a mirage drive failure slightly different from Scott's.  The bolt for the pedal pulled through the shaft.  Will have to post pictures and see if anybody else has had the same thing happen.

Someone just posted that on the hobie site. https://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=48377&sid=6a74f171efd011289882858159145cd8&start=60

I used these bits

15/32”, 3/8”, 5/16”, ¼”

Only the pedal spindle hole has to be precise as far as diameter (15/32").
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Sledge on March 27, 2014, 01:37:23 PM
Yeah, I would hold off doing what I did until I stress test the shafts.
looks sweet Scott...busted a peddle last yr...well someone else did...same thing...lol... love this thread good info...guys!!!

Sent from my LGL86C using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Great Bass 2 on March 29, 2014, 11:07:27 AM
For you guys who get the V1 solid aluminum pedal shafts, which I highly recommend, you have to choose a pair of pedals. I would recommend using inexpensive, plastic pedals for 2 reasons:
1. The bearings in any pedal arent going to last long on the ocean and the plastic pedals are dirt cheap.
2. The plastic pedals can be easily modified and less likely to cut fishing line.

I removed the inner curved part of the pedal with a dremel because it was a potential line entrapment issue which I noticed on my test run. I know you bike guys will be tempted to get some expensive titanium pedals but... :smt005 :smt005 :smt005, you don't want to go "Armstrong" IMO.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on March 29, 2014, 11:59:39 AM
Great Bass made a good pedal decision. Either go cheap and replaceable or more permanent and expensive. If one chooses to use clip in pedals then very cheap is not an option. My used mid price clip in pedals went through last seasons salt outings and did fine. Bearings spin free and pedals have only minor rust stain.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Elkhornsun on June 03, 2014, 10:43:36 PM
Wellgo BMX pedals with sealed bearings sell for $22.

Anodizing is only microns thick so no better than paint for any area subject to wear. Going with ANSI 5083-H32 aluminum would make for some very strong cranks. Maybe time to get some manufactured for the fishing market. This is the kind of item that is quick and inexpensive to have made in China and Hobie has a patent on the drive mechanism but not on the crank arms and pedals.

I have to wonder how much of the failure is with the use of the turbo fins. It is going to take more force to move them through the water and the result is going to be more stress on every part of the Mirage drive. It may be easiest to replace the V2 shafts every 12-18 months as the breakage is from metal fatigue with excessive flexing of the hollow shaft.

Surprising in an era of CAD software that provides stress simulation that this flaw got into manufacture at Hobie. Someone was not doing their job. My company makes tools for which we provide a 5-year warranty and the tools are engineered to hold up with daily use by contractors who use and abuse tools. This is not rocket science.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: fungunnin on June 04, 2014, 07:27:22 AM
When I decided on what metal to use for the drive arms I'm starting to manufacture I was torn between going with tubular stainless or solid bar aluminum. After looking at the specs of high grade aluminum I decided that the additional baring surface and the added strength of 7075 aluminum. I have been running my prototype pair since last year and they have oxidized some but nothing I am worried about. For my production pedals arms I will Anodize them to mil spec so they should be pretty tough.
I am pretty excited about the adapter I am incorporating into my pedal design that will allow both stock Hobie pedals and 9/16 bike pedals.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: charles on June 04, 2014, 08:42:46 AM
I think solid stock 7075 aluminum is stronger than tubed SS. Solid SS would be harder to thread for bike pedals and probably overkill for the purpose of pedal shafts. I have not heard of any breakage of the original solid drive shaft arms Hobie used in the V1 drives. Having pedal options and possibly different length drive arms sets your product apart from Hobie's old style arms and will be superior by far to Hobie's current tubed aluminum drive arms.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: jonesz on October 19, 2014, 09:07:11 AM
Hey Scott,
I bought a set of Melidium drill bits a couple years ago. They are designed to drill SS. With good cutting oil, they go through like butter. Truly amazing drills. One of the best investments I ever made. I got mine from the local welding supply. So far only one of the smaller bits broke. I've drilled SS several times with them. Steady pressure and oil are the key.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Tote on October 19, 2014, 09:14:04 AM
Hey Scott,
I bought a set of Melidium drill bits a couple years ago. They are designed to drill SS. With good cutting oil, they go through like butter. Truly amazing drills. One of the best investments I ever made. I got mine from the local welding supply. So far only one of the smaller bits broke. I've drilled SS several times with them. Steady pressure and oil are the key.

Glynn,
I did a search of Melidium Drill Bits and could not find anything on the internet.
What brand are they?
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: elusive on October 19, 2014, 10:40:39 AM
Try using cobalt drill bits for your stainless steel or titanium . The key is slow speed and hard pressure and use bees wax or cutting oil . I've been using this bit for over 35 years on Aircraft ...
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: mickfish on October 19, 2014, 05:09:28 PM
Hey Scott,
I bought a set of Melidium drill bits a couple years ago. They are designed to drill SS. With good cutting oil, they go through like butter. Truly amazing drills. One of the best investments I ever made. I got mine from the local welding supply. So far only one of the smaller bits broke. I've drilled SS several times with them. Steady pressure and oil are the key.

Glynn,
I did a search of Melidium Drill Bits and could not find anything on the internet.
What brand are they?
???  :smt043 :smt043  http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Concrete-Tools/Diamond-Core-Bits/Millenium-5300-Bits-Professional-Core-Bits
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Tote on October 19, 2014, 05:42:15 PM
Hey Scott,
I bought a set of Melidium drill bits a couple years ago. They are designed to drill SS. With good cutting oil, they go through like butter. Truly amazing drills. One of the best investments I ever made. I got mine from the local welding supply. So far only one of the smaller bits broke. I've drilled SS several times with them. Steady pressure and oil are the key.

Glynn,
I did a search of Melidium Drill Bits and could not find anything on the internet.
What brand are they?
???  :smt043 :smt043  http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Concrete-Tools/Diamond-Core-Bits/Millenium-5300-Bits-Professional-Core-Bits


Ahhh...............millenium
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: [WR] on October 19, 2014, 08:00:58 PM
Guys,
Here's how someone at NWKA solved a similar issue.
http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=13295.0
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: batt on November 06, 2014, 05:34:57 PM
      Just for an FYI:   I broke a pedal shaft on my 2012 AI at the crab opener.  25 to 30 knot winds made getting back to Doran Beach interesting.  I could not bring the bow around with the single paddle,  even with the sail completely reefed.  I figured out to turn downwind a complete circle to tack.
  Thanks to Hobie Dave for carrying extra mirage parts so I was able to return to my pots Sun.
Title: Re: DIY Stainless Steel Mirage Drive Pedal Shafts
Post by: Califbill on September 20, 2017, 09:58:15 AM
The drill bits you want are Split Point style for stainless steel.  Keeps from work hardening the entry point.