AOTY black bass submissions

“It’s my fish and I can do what I want with it.” This is true.  But when you submit that fish to AOTY, that photo reflects AOTY in the eyes of anyone looking in.  The NCKA community takes pride in recognizing proper CnR technique with all sorts of fish, and is often quick to address instances where CnR was not practiced properly.  This post is my attempt at nipping this issue in the bud before it potentially catches on with other anglers who may think “well if that person can do it, then I can do it too.”

I do agree with your sentiment here, and agree that those that are catching and releasing fish should continue to do so and all the tips your giving are helpful.  But I'd have to point out (at great risk of pissing everyone off yet again  )  that that AOTY rules have changed over the years to be more about the points than the handling of fish.  In essence the way it is setup now, I feel like I should kill all of my fish, to make sure I can get a proper measurement. 

“The fish won’t relax and there’s no way I can get this AOTY photo without pinching its lips shut.” If this is the case, then please consider this: that fish you’re submitting is reflecting on EVERYONE who participates or is associated with AOTY.  It paints us in a poor light in the eyes of other anglers and gives the impression that we don’t know about proper CnR.  Not to mention, the fish will most likely be rejected by the Committee.

Now I get to feel the guilt of the entire board if I try hard to take a decent picture by the rules?

“It’s my fish and I can do what I want with it.” This is true.  But when you submit that fish to AOTY, that photo reflects AOTY in the eyes of anyone looking in.  The NCKA community takes pride in recognizing proper CnR technique with all sorts of fish, and is often quick to address instances where CnR was not practiced properly.  This post is my attempt at nipping this issue in the bud before it potentially catches on with other anglers who may think “well if that person can do it, then I can do it too.”

I do agree with your sentiment here, and agree that those that are catching and releasing fish should continue to do so and all the tips your giving are helpful.  But I'd have to point out (at great risk of pissing everyone off yet again  )  that that AOTY rules have changed over the years to be more about the points than the handling of fish.  In essence the way it is setup now, I feel like I should kill all of my fish, to make sure I can get a proper measurement. 

“The fish won’t relax and there’s no way I can get this AOTY photo without pinching its lips shut.” If this is the case, then please consider this: that fish you’re submitting is reflecting on EVERYONE who participates or is associated with AOTY.  It paints us in a poor light in the eyes of other anglers and gives the impression that we don’t know about proper CnR.  Not to mention, the fish will most likely be rejected by the Committee.

Now I get to feel the guilt of the entire board if I try hard to take a decent picture by the rules?

Thanks for the concerns Al.  I'll try my best to address them.  But just to clarify:

1) When you mention that AOTY is now set up to make one feel they should kill all their fish, do you mean all AOTY fish in general, or just black bass?  From what I've seen so far, black bass entries mostly consist of live fish and that trend has continued even with the closed-mouth rule.  If you mean all AOTY fish in general, that's a question outside the scope of this post.

2) The potential for a "guilt trip" for a photo that you try to take that doesn't come out the way you hoped can be avoided by not submitting the entry if you think the photo could be contentious.  I'll hazard a guess and say that 90 percent of the black bass entries in AOTY look perfectly fine from both the CnR and AOTY rules perspectives.  It doesn't appear to be difficult to achieve.

Again, I want to keep this post specific to black bass.  For other species or AOTY concerns in general, I recommend starting a different thread.

I'm not in AOTY, but this is a helpful post to me because I am guilty of grabbing the fish by the bottom jaw and pulling them into the boat. Most of the time they are flopping all around trying to get loose. This, according to what you have said, can damage their mouth and wind up causing them to not be able to eat.
Not good!
I will now net all my bass and be a bit more gentle while handling them so they can grow bigger and I can catch them again!
Thanks Chris for passing on the information!
Oh, the things I never knew I never knew!

I'm not in AOTY, but this is a helpful post to me because I am guilty of grabbing the fish by the bottom jaw and pulling them into the boat. Most of the time they are flopping all around trying to get loose. This, according to what you have said, can damage their mouth and wind up causing them to not be able to eat.
Not good!
I will now net all my bass and be a bit more gentle while handling them so they can grow bigger and I can catch them again!
Thanks Chris for passing on the information!
Oh, the things I never knew I never knew!

That's great to hear that the post was helpful for you Chris!  It's okay to pick up bass by the lower lip.  Just try to keep them as "vertical" as possible.  Problems arise when the bass is "bent" to where the body is exerting extreme pressure on the lower jaw.  The photo below is a good way of "lipping" a bass.  Note how the body is kept as vertical as possible.

Chris,

Thanks from me, too, for the post.When we get to rockfish and the like, I would like to address the "gill-grab" I see people using with Lingcod. Yes, they are toothy, but putting fingers into ANY fish's gills will kill them.

Dan

“It’s my fish and I can do what I want with it.” This is true.  But when you submit that fish to AOTY, that photo reflects AOTY in the eyes of anyone looking in.  The NCKA community takes pride in recognizing proper CnR technique with all sorts of fish, and is often quick to address instances where CnR was not practiced properly.  This post is my attempt at nipping this issue in the bud before it potentially catches on with other anglers who may think “well if that person can do it, then I can do it too.”

I do agree with your sentiment here, and agree that those that are catching and releasing fish should continue to do so and all the tips your giving are helpful.  But I'd have to point out (at great risk of pissing everyone off yet again  )  that that AOTY rules have changed over the years to be more about the points than the handling of fish.  In essence the way it is setup now, I feel like I should kill all of my fish, to make sure I can get a proper measurement. 

“The fish won’t relax and there’s no way I can get this AOTY photo without pinching its lips shut.” If this is the case, then please consider this: that fish you’re submitting is reflecting on EVERYONE who participates or is associated with AOTY.  It paints us in a poor light in the eyes of other anglers and gives the impression that we don’t know about proper CnR.  Not to mention, the fish will most likely be rejected by the Committee.

Now I get to feel the guilt of the entire board if I try hard to take a decent picture by the rules?

Thanks for the concerns Al.  I'll try my best to address them.  But just to clarify:

1) When you mention that AOTY is now set up to make one feel they should kill all their fish, do you mean all AOTY fish in general, or just black bass?  From what I've seen so far, black bass entries mostly consist of live fish and that trend has continued even with the closed-mouth rule.  If you mean all AOTY fish in general, that's a question outside the scope of this post.

Well, yes I do mean all of AOTY in general.  Except of course steelhead, which have their own protection in the form of DFG rules (for waters that are protected).  I know the sentiment is high for black bass with most anglers.  And it makes plenty of sense too, since they want to continue to catch bass (and hopefully bigger and bigger bass).  But since there isn't an actual AOTY rule about how to handle the fish, your now saying that if I pinch it's lips shut on a black bass that it will be disqualified?! For what reason? There is nothing in the rules that states this.  So I have to argue that the rules the way your stating them, and how they seem to be written, favor the killing of fish, rather than protecting the fish, for the sake of making sure you get those points, or the perfect picture.

2) The potential for a "guilt trip" for a photo that you try to take that doesn't come out the way you hoped can be avoided by not submitting the entry if you think the photo could be contentious.  I'll hazard a guess and say that 90 percent of the black bass entries in AOTY look perfectly fine from both the CnR and AOTY rules perspectives.  It doesn't appear to be difficult to achieve.

Again, I want to keep this post specific to black bass.  For other species or AOTY concerns in general, I recommend starting a different thread.

Well then, specific to black bass, why doesn't the AOTY committee just decide that black bass must be CnR, net only, and no touching allowed when photographing?  Or if there isn't going to be a change in in the actual AOTY rules in favor of protecting them, why state this as "AOTY black bass submissions"  This is a very informative post and really it pains me to muddy it up with my thoughts on this subject.  But really it shouldn't be directed at AOTY participants, but rather everyone on the site who are concerned for the health of black bass and want to know more about how to safely handle them.

Al, here is text from AOTY Rule #3: You are not allowed to stretch or pull the lips to gain extra length. It may seem "new" because the rule was not consistently enforced in years past.

Like I mentioned earlier, there are only a very small minority of black bass entered into AOTY that involve the participant pinching the lips of the fish shut.  So far, every one of these entries that I have seen has fingers placed in between the bass’ nose and its upper mandible.  That “space” is called the frenum, and consists of soft tissue lodged between hard/cartilaginous tissue.  When an angler sticks their fingers into the frenum, they are (whether it’s intentional or not) “stretching” the bass’ lips.  That violates the text from Rule #3 that I quoted above.  If you have an example of a lip-pinched bass that does not include fingers in the frenum or pulling the upper mandible, please post it for the community (and the AOTY Committee) for discussion.  Otherwise, enforcing this rule accomplishes multiple goals: 1) it will reduce the potential for contention among participants who may claim an angler gained extra length by pinching the lips of a bass, and 2) it helps streamline a gray area in the rules (“are the fish’s lips being pulled or not?”) into a black-and-white situation. If the bass is dead, then there should be no need to pinch its lips shut.

This post was not intended for non-AOTY entries.  Like I mentioned in the original post, one of the objectives of the post was to improve the image of AOTY in the eyes of those who may be interested in participating or donating prizes.  What one does with their own fish outside of AOTY is up to them, and does not reflect on AOTY.  I’m more than happy to provide information on proper CnR technique in general, but there is plenty of literature and online resources out there that already cover these topics.  The post was specifically aimed at how bass are handled for AOTY photographs.

skill level SCOTUS

Al, here is text from AOTY Rule #3: You are not allowed to stretch or pull the lips to gain extra length. It may seem "new" because the rule was not consistently enforced in years past.

Like I mentioned earlier, there are only a very small minority of black bass entered into AOTY that involve the participant pinching the lips of the fish shut.  So far, every one of these entries that I have seen has fingers placed in between the bass’ nose and its upper mandible.

Well, that is definitely an eye opener for me!  I had never even conceived that there was a way to stretch a bass's lips while having to make sure it's mouth was shut.  I think that most people might find that to be a bit confusing when you are saying "not allowed to stretch or pull the lips to gain extra length" is the same thing as trying to close a bass's mouth.  This rule is nice and clear. "Mouths must be completely closed". 

That “space” is called the frenum, and consists of soft tissue lodged between hard/cartilaginous tissue.  When an angler sticks their fingers into the frenum, they are (whether it’s intentional or not) “stretching” the bass’ lips.  That violates the text from Rule #3 that I quoted above.  If you have an example of a lip-pinched bass that does not include fingers in the frenum or pulling the upper mandible, please post it for the community (and the AOTY Committee) for discussion.  Otherwise, enforcing this rule accomplishes multiple goals: 1) it will reduce the potential for contention among participants who may claim an angler gained extra length by pinching the lips of a bass, and 2) it helps streamline a gray area in the rules (“are the fish’s lips being pulled or not?”) into a black-and-white situation. If the bass is dead, then there should be no need to pinch its lips shut.

Exactly my point.  The rules here favor those that are willing to kill the fish for points.  And those that are willing to cheat are likely just as willing to kill a fish to make that cheating even easier, aren't they?  Have there really been that many people trying to get away with cheating by stretching the fishes lips? 

This post was not intended for non-AOTY entries.  Like I mentioned in the original post, one of the objectives of the post was to improve the image of AOTY in the eyes of those who may be interested in participating or donating prizes.  What one does with their own fish outside of AOTY is up to them, and does not reflect on AOTY.  I’m more than happy to provide information on proper CnR technique in general, but there is plenty of literature and online resources out there that already cover these topics.  The post was specifically aimed at how bass are handled for AOTY photographs.

FWIW, this is the thread in 2014 where PK posted about the lip pulling/stretching rule being added to both AOTY and DOTY:

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=61508.0

This was primarily my suggestion for DOTY but it was agreed upon that it would be beneficial for AOTY as well for both dead fish and for those fish that may be injured by messing with their mouth.

Here are a few examples of old submissions which led to us adding this wording:

http://doty.norcalkayakanglers.com/catches/1066

http://doty.norcalkayakanglers.com/catches/1068

 

Sincerely,

Jim

Have there really been that many people trying to get away with cheating by stretching the fishes lips? 

Not cheating if it's not spelled out in rules...just competitors trying to get the maximum amount of points possible...and it can turn into "well if he did it, I should to"..especially in a comp where 1st and 2nd can be the difference of 1/4 inch of one fish....

IMO now the rules are clearer and the playing field is more level.

But that's just my opinion.

I'll crawl back in my DOTY hole now.

 

 

Sincerely,

Jim

AL,

U mad bro?

Don't hurt fish you are gonna release. If you didn't know it was harming the fish to pinch the lips before, you do now. I didn't, and now I do.  I appr coats the clarification and I don't see how this changes the rules mid year. I understand what you are saying but I don't see it. Pushing the lips together forces them out and you could conceivably gain 1/4 inch by doing so, which is stretching the lips and started this year out as against the rules.

As for favoring killing fish over C&R, I agree with that but I don't think it's a bad thing. There are no C&R only species in AOTY. You have to be able to kill the fish in order to enter it.  DFW manages the resource for retention.

If AOTY wanted to encourage C&R there would be video release points bonus.

Al,


When you say “most people”, are you speaking for the majority of participants (at least 90 percent, if I had to guess) who do not pinch the lips of their bass closed?  Or the remaining 10 percent of participants who have done it?  We want the rules to be clear for everyone.  Do you believe posting a photo of a lip-pinched bass with the caption “Do not do this” would be helpful in clearing up the confusion?  In my eyes, the rules and the original post in this thread seem to clear the air with the issue.  If it’s confusing, how do you suggest we re-word the rule and my original post in this thread so most people will understand it?  We welcome constructive criticism of the rules and would value your assistance in this particular situation.

All the eligible species for AOTY, with the exception of specific catch-and-release waters, are fish that an angler can legally harvest.  If an angler wants to harvest a bass, they can do so, even if it’s a 10+ pound bass.  Like I mentioned in the original post, one of the reasons we want to eliminate the lip-pinching on bass is because it can lead to permanent mouth damage and a potentially slow, agonizing death through starvation.  Enforcement of this rule would place everyone on a level playing field with regards to bass measurements.  The lip-pinching practice is completely unnecessary (proof of this is the 90 percent or so of bass entries do not involve pinched lips) and potentially damaging to the fish, not to mention the potential implications for accusations of cheating/length manipulation among competitors.  I agree that the latter is a relatively unlikely scenario, but the fact that some years the scores among the Top 3 can be decided by as little as a ¼ inch, do we want to risk allowing that to occur and potentially tarnish the standings for the entire year?  Or do you believe we should eliminate the possibility of this occurring by enforcing a rule that basically won’t affect over 90 percent of participants because they don’t pinch the lips of their bass in the first place? 

As for the assumption that AOTY rules in general promote the killing of every fish an angler wants to submit: how so?  The catch-and-release aspect of the competition is completely voluntary, yet we see many, many entries of CnR’ed fish from many species.  Just as an example, take a look at the “Most Recent” fish posted on the AOTY board today.  It appears that every black bass entry on there consists of a live fish.  All of those fish were eligible to be harvested, yet (as far as I can tell) all of those anglers voluntarily chose to release them.  We’re not advocating against harvest.  What we are advocating against is additional and unnecessary damage to black bass that are to be released.  That being said, I just don’t foresee a sharp increase in large, dead bass on troughs because of enforcement of this rule because most participants have been able to pull off AOTY-quality photos of live bass on their trough, and often on their lap and on the water, without attempting to pinch the fish’s mouth shut.  I understand where you’re coming from with this, but it just doesn’t seem like a realistic future to me, especially with regards to bass.  Instead of dwelling on the realistically obscure what-if scenarios, how about we “cross that bridge if we come to it”?

“Have there really been that many people trying to get away with cheating by stretching the fishes lips?” Agreed!  Like I mentioned before in one of the posts, this rule would only affect a very small minority of current participants.

Thanks for the info, Chris!
I will be careful.

Naoaki

Really interesting. I'm guilty of pinching lips on bass. Thank you for an eye opening post.