NorCal Kayak Anglers

Kayak Fishing Zone => Safety First => Topic started by: Hydrospider on November 23, 2016, 09:17:38 AM

Title: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on November 23, 2016, 09:17:38 AM
 Does the current NCKA culture find value in using internal flotation in fishing SOTs?
And, is this a priority project or just something to get to eventually?

If you do use flotation, feel free to share pictures.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: eelkram on November 23, 2016, 09:46:39 AM
I definitely find value in using internal flotation.   It's a priority project for me based on the experiences of others.

Since most of my fishing is in the ocean, I see it as a safety feature.  In addition to a healthy respect for toothy critters, I like having the added floatation to protect against the very real risk of faulty drain-plugs and leaky hatches.

Kayak fishing is an expensive lifestyle, and I'd like to try to keep my equipment for as long as possible.
 
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Dale L on November 23, 2016, 09:51:09 AM
I voted option one, an "absolute" which is probably a little stronger than I really feel, but option 2 "not really necessary" is something I can't vote for. Especially if I was giving advice to an inexperienced person.

Several years ago I was headed out to San Pablo Bay for some sturgeon fishing, planning to be a fair ways out.

The wind was up that day so I opted for another spot in a slough. 

Somewhere along the line my hull had cracked, the yak was a Cobra Marauder and only a few years old and never abused or stored in the sun.  Found that Marauders had this problem and Cobra ultimately redesigned the bottom of the hull and replaced mine free of charge.

Sign I missed was the unstable yak.  I'm always a little unstable for the first few minutes so I noticed it but explained it away in my head. Got to the spot, anchored up and then noticed it was really unstable, popped the hatch and "oh shit".  Immediately headed to shore (50yds). Got there just in time to hit the bank before I rolled it. Drug it up the bank emptied it out and made a beeline back to the launch and again got there just before it became completely unmanageable.

I had an empty hull, (no noodles), no bilge pump, no VHF. If I had stayed with the original plan and been a mile or so out into SPB it would have been a really bad day.  I always wear a wetsuit and PFD in the bay, so I would have eventually gotten home but..........

Now I have 20 noodles run in-between the scuppers and the outside of the hull so they aren't in the way, I also carry a bilge pump and now after reading a few other posts I added a spare paddle.  Also placing the noodles in the outside periphery of the hull will be more stable if it floods than if you just put them in the center area.

Lots of crap to carry but not really in the way with a trident, but one of my favorite things is fish for sturgeon (yes I know, like being stabbed to death with a spoon to quote one of the most respected members ever).  But I find myself sometimes a mile out (solo) into the bay system with it's winds and currents so I'm doing the better prepared than sorry thing. Yes carry the VHF too.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: NowhereMan on November 23, 2016, 01:30:12 PM
Pool noodles in the hull... As Karl Malden would say, don't leave home without it!
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Salty. on November 23, 2016, 05:33:23 PM
Hobie kayaks come with closed cell foam for flotation already in the hull.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: rnrgeek on November 23, 2016, 06:30:40 PM
I have looked all over for pool noodles. Where can I get these, besides Amazon? I've looked at walmart, dicks, target, west marine.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: trianglelaguna on November 23, 2016, 06:35:07 PM
keep checking wal mart--it a season item and yes-they will have them and when they do buy 25$-35$ = 20 + at normal price ... and drive home with one mirror....they might be gone the next time you go back lol



my vote--heck yeah--I saw a guy sink  :smt044  true story...he was hating it
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: LoletaEric on November 23, 2016, 06:55:57 PM
Dollar Store is a good place for noodles.

Flotation is really an important consideration for offshore kayaking.  When you're miles from launch you want to know at least the carcass of a kayak will be under your ass if the shit hits the fan.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Tote on November 23, 2016, 07:13:49 PM
You need one more option.
"A good  idea but I choose not to."
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: SlackedTide on November 23, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
Absolutely, I don't want to be that guy... Always thought about filling a bag with expanding closed cell foam inside the hull.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: lightfoot on November 23, 2016, 08:48:30 PM
As a noob I chose not to vote.  With that said, I've got 12 pool noodles in the hull and also store my wheelz in the hull while on the water.  I'll add additional noodles when I find them.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: stillgoin on November 24, 2016, 11:23:32 AM
With 90+% of my fishing being in ocean, often several miles from shore, I view flotation as a must.
Can often find pool noodles cheap this time of year, I also found a bunch of kids plastic balls for cheap a year ago that also work well.
m
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Alcim11 on November 24, 2016, 12:27:06 PM
Kayak have been sunk due to a hatch coming loose in bad weather.   My Trident 13 is full of as many pool noodles as can fit.  I had hatch straps break easily from UV damage a couple of times, and can imagine what that would be like offshore with a breaking large swell close to my comfort limits if that happened.  For a challenging surf landing I would pull some out to stash my equipment and save it if I roll at the beach.  I'd bungee the noodles on the deck and risk loosing them, not my rods. I do pay attention now to UV protection of my straps.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: NowhereMan on November 24, 2016, 03:54:43 PM
Hobie kayaks come with closed cell foam for flotation already in the hull.

Yes, but that's not enough, IMHO.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: pmmpete on November 24, 2016, 08:12:46 PM
You don't need just enough floatation in a sit-on-top kayak to keep the kayak afloat when it's full of water.  You need enough floatation in a sit-on-top kayak to keep the kayak afloat when it's full of water, and you are sitting in the kayak with your normal fishing gear.  With that objective in mind, I have added pool noodles to both my Revolution and my Trident.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Tinker on November 27, 2016, 02:52:51 AM
Flotation cushions beat pool noodles.  You can toss one to someone in need or use one yourself in dire straits... and you can get them for about the same cost as a pile of pool noodles.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: trianglelaguna on November 27, 2016, 06:12:42 AM
pool noodles rob you of the sheer adventure , the purist risk factor ,of deep ocean kayaking
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: YaknFish on November 27, 2016, 09:51:51 AM
I don't kayak fish to risk my life so I take all feasible precautions.  Besides, it's a real pain to try to get a waterlogged kayak to shore even if it doesn't sink; I've had that experience due to leaky hatches.  I have about 20 pool noodles in my kayak and I have a pump, a VHF, and a locator beacon.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: NowhereMan on November 27, 2016, 01:35:42 PM
pool noodles rob you of the sheer adventure , the purist risk factor ,of deep ocean kayaking

Yes, but who wants to kayak deep in the ocean?
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: trianglelaguna on November 27, 2016, 02:20:06 PM
drill a small hole even , ads to the adventure , waste no time.. limit out..
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Baitman on November 27, 2016, 02:22:53 PM
   Aeromarine  https://www.aeromarineproducts.com/product-category/pour-foam/

    Sells pourable closed cell foam.     Mix and pour into any cavity.   Or you could mix it in a plastic bag, set the bag where you want it to  let the foam expand in place.   You'd get the added benefit of stiffness by filling cavities you can't use anyway..   ( Like where your straps compress the hull )   

  The 2# density would be good.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: NowhereMan on November 27, 2016, 02:26:14 PM
drill a small hole even ...

Go big or go home!
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 04, 2016, 10:38:45 AM
 A pro flotation article and a recovery technique that could help someone rescue a flooded boat.
http://www.useakayak.org/recoveries_rescues/cleos_needle2.html

Thanks for the participation and wisdom shared.
I think that Tote is right. Its not that folks aren't aware that flotation is valuable, but some are just choosing not to use any. Interesting.
This year had reports of both a ditching scenario and a victim of a flooded hull (Cleopatra's needle) at an event. Both required assistance. While these were the more recent they're certainly not the first or the last.
The unsecured drain plug happens, plastics fail, hatches fail, and humans fail.
Some might be finding some security in having a bilge pump but should remember that flotation and the pump work together to help prevent a ditching event.
I might be on the paranoid side, but I really don't want to have to ditch, especially in the pacific.
I use flotation, have a pump, a bowline, leg straps, and work on my skills. Anything to help me not have to use that radio.

Thanks again to all that voted and contributed.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 04, 2016, 10:47:45 AM
A few random photos of flooded boats from the web.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Fisherman X on December 04, 2016, 11:46:37 AM
Is that vertical submerged one of you, Terry?
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: pmmpete on December 04, 2016, 12:16:11 PM
About a year ago I got off the water after a day of fishing and discovered that I had failed to bungie down the front hatch on my Revolution at the beginning of the day.  Yikes.  If I had flipped during the day, the kayak could have rapidly filled up with water.

If a sit-on-top kayak gets a small amount of water inside its hull, a paddler can use a bilge pump to pump the water out of the hatch in front of the kayak's seat while sitting in the kayak.  But as the kayak gets more water inside the hull, the kayak's cockpit will start to fill up, and water will start to slosh into the open hatch, particularly if there are waves on the water.  As still more water gets in the hull, the hatch will eventually be under water, and at that point self rescue will no longer be possible.  The kayak will quickly fill up with water and become unstable, and unless there is a lot of flotation in the kayak, it won't support the weight of a kayaker.  It would be very hard to pump water out of a sit-on-top kayak while floating in the water next to the kayak.  However, two or more other kayakers could pull the swamped kayak up onto their kayaks, turn it over, and drain it.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: RBark on December 04, 2016, 01:32:03 PM
I can't imagine trying to pull a swamped kayak to drain it on the water. Talking about 300+ pounds to lift out of the water without a stable platform to lift on..
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: NowhereMan on December 04, 2016, 04:18:25 PM
I can't imagine trying to pull a swamped kayak to drain it on the water. Talking about 300+ pounds to lift out of the water without a stable platform to lift on..

+1
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: pmmpete on December 04, 2016, 09:06:43 PM
I can't imagine trying to pull a swamped kayak to drain it on the water. Talking about 300+ pounds to lift out of the water without a stable platform to lift on..
Basically, the assisting kayaker drains water out of the swamped kayak by lifting it slowly until much of the water has drained out, pulling it up onto the assisting kayak or kayaks, turning it upside down, and draining the rest of the water out, as illustrated in the following videos involving recreational kayaks and sea kayaks.  It's harder to drain a sit-on-top kayak than a sit-inside kayak, because you need to drain the water out of the front hatch, which is less convenient than draining it out of the cockpit of a sit-inside kayak.  It would be a lot easier for two kayakers to drain a sit-on-top kayak on the water, because one kayaker can lift the stern high enough to drain water out of the front hatch while the other kayaker supports the bow. Sea kayaks with waterproof chambers are a lot easier to drain than recreational sit-inside kayaks or sit-on-top kayaks, because only the cockpit will contain water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZb8Po_YkA8 (recreational kayak)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj2_C1WNFAk (sea kayak)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pj5TPhovlM (sea kayak with waterproof chambers)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Z43EqTRUA (Sea kayak with waterproof chambers)
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: NowhereMan on December 04, 2016, 09:19:35 PM
It's harder to drain a sit-on-top kayak than a sit-inside kayak, ...

Yes, I think it'd be way more difficult to make anything like that work for a SOT kayak.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 05, 2016, 10:57:57 AM
Is that vertical submerged one of you, Terry?

 Nope, but I really like that photo and would like to have a shot like that in one of my boats.

Was hoping that some of the proponents of flotation would share pictures of their hull space.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 05, 2016, 12:49:42 PM
My river boat hull stuffed, but still allowing for some storage space.

(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af155/hydrospider/floatation%20projects/P7040057_zps25063a47.jpg) (http://s1003.photobucket.com/user/hydrospider/media/floatation%20projects/P7040057_zps25063a47.jpg.html)
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af155/hydrospider/floatation%20projects/P7040053_zps6a8564b9.jpg) (http://s1003.photobucket.com/user/hydrospider/media/floatation%20projects/P7040053_zps6a8564b9.jpg.html)

 One thing that I try to practice is trying to trap as much air as possible into my dry bags that I store in the hull. This helps take up the left over dead space and provides even more flotation.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: lightfoot on December 05, 2016, 05:21:34 PM
That's impressive.  I hate to say, but it never occurred to me that I could cut them down in size to fit crosswise.

I found 6 more noodles at ace hardware a few days ago, plenty of room for far more than that in my 13.5 kraken.  I do put my Wheelz in the front hatch, so that area needs to be free.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 06, 2016, 08:45:18 AM
That's impressive.  I hate to say, but it never occurred to me that I could cut them down in size to fit crosswise.

I found 6 more noodles at ace hardware a few days ago, plenty of room for far more than that in my 13.5 kraken.  I do put my Wheelz in the front hatch, so that area needs to be free.

That is now my preferred method to stack as many pool noodles as I can and still having some storage space.
Here is the more "traditional" lateral style.

(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af155/hydrospider/floatation%20projects/P5290005_zps7252a3b4.jpg) (http://s1003.photobucket.com/user/hydrospider/media/floatation%20projects/P5290005_zps7252a3b4.jpg.html)

I can't imagine trying to pull a swamped kayak to drain it on the water. Talking about 300+ pounds to lift out of the water without a stable platform to lift on..

Maybe a bit more than 300+pounds.   I believe that my last WW boat was 75 gallons. A fishing sit on top could have even more capacity and boats have gotten bigger over the last 5 years.
1 gallon = 8.36 pounds
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: trianglelaguna on December 06, 2016, 09:10:25 AM
I do notice when self carrying down a steep rocky ,slippery -gravel -trail ,or ,shouldering up big steps, that the f-n-dives with noodles are much heftier to pack after the first 400' or so  :smt044...
when its that noticeable to grab an full noodles and spare paddle and pump packed- f-n-dive,back to back with another empty one down a rough trail...makes me see why it would be good to have one  kayak kept around ,empty--I have one for if ever get around to diving again..or...trails...rope..fins etc..close to shore ..remote commando days over logs and trails or roping down..empty has its place for sure
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 06, 2016, 10:05:08 AM
http://www.users.on.net/~pcarter/flooding.html

 This article is interesting. "A kayak flooding experiment".
This moves beyond the obvious that flotation is a necessary part of kayaking, and tests bulkhead vs integrated flotation.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 06, 2016, 11:37:48 AM
 Another for the nonbelievers.
http://kayakdave.com/2012/09/30/can-you-sink-a-kayak/

This will wrap this one up for me and will be my last contribution with the NCKA other than a quick "good bye". I hope it was interesting and got those who voted other than YES! to stop and consider.

Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Baitman on December 06, 2016, 05:06:30 PM
This was a great topic.  Thanks for posting it.    So,,,What ?   Are you leaving the planet?       
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 06, 2016, 07:02:57 PM
Glad you enjoyed it Baitman.
I'm moving north into NWKA territory.


Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Baitman on December 06, 2016, 07:43:17 PM
Ahh,,, same screen name ?     Maybe we'll meet at the ORC next year.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Hydrospider on December 07, 2016, 11:12:13 AM
 Yes, Ill keep the Hydrospider moniker.
It's very likely that Ill be at the ORC. That tourney was the best experience of any of the kayak fishing events that I have gone to and Ill be working about 50 minutes from Depoe Bay.
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Bushy on December 07, 2016, 09:58:20 PM
No but I probably should.

Bushy
Title: Re: FLOTATION poll
Post by: Tote on December 07, 2016, 10:03:34 PM
Another for the nonbelievers.
http://kayakdave.com/2012/09/30/can-you-sink-a-kayak/

This will wrap this one up for me and will be my last contribution with the NCKA other than a quick "good bye". I hope it was interesting and got those who voted other than YES! to stop and consider.

Glad you enjoyed it Baitman.
I'm moving north into NWKA territory.


Well that didn't take long. Welcome back!  :smt044