NorCal Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing Zone => Fishing Tournaments and Events => Topic started by: 925angler on December 27, 2010, 09:55:08 PM
-
Any idea if a 2011 is going to happen??
-
I'd say it's a sure thing.
You joining?
-
Definitely!
-
For Sure!!!!! :fishing2 :fishing1
-
Anybody know when it will be posted for sign-up? I'm hoping to get out on the first and would love to be able to post some fish that evening. :smt003
-
Yeah, I'm surprised there isn't a signup thread already. I gotta pay the $40 entrance fee asap....otherwise the money is going to catch fire in my wallet! Who do we paypal the money to?
-
Yeah, I'm surprised there isn't a signup thread already. I gotta pay the $40 entrance fee asap....otherwise the money is going to catch fire in my wallet! Who do we paypal the money to?
Make checks to me!!!!!!
-
I'm in,
Hopefully I can get out more :smt012 this year.
-
I'm in,
Hopefully I can get out more :smt012 this year.
If you do, I'm sure you'll be on the top 10. You almost made it this year! :smt001
-
If the link for 2011 doesnt come up, just pay for 2010. I am sure they will sort it out. Thats how it went down last year. Then the rules changed.
-
This year hopefully anymore 'rule changes' will be announced prior to this Saturday and the beginning of the next contest. :smt012
IF NOT..... let me make one thing clear.....I am ready for anything. :redmoon
13 points an inch should be enough..... :smt116
-
Nice one. :smt005
-
There hasn't been any talk that I'm aware of about changing the rules for 2011 AOTY. The only thing we might do is adjust some points per inch, but even that hasn't been discussed. Sometimes it's easier to just leave things as is ...
-Allen
-
so allen, can we just pay for 2010 and it will be applied to 2011?
-
PM was sent re: 'the problem' aka sturgeon undervalued .....but Brian's been awol.
-
so allen, can we just pay for 2010 and it will be applied to 2011?
Actually, give me a couple days to put up a new Paypal link.
-Allen
-
PM was sent re: 'the problem' aka sturgeon undervalued .....but Brian's been awol.
I don't think Sturgeon is really undervalued. The top 3 sturgeon in this years tourney scored very respectably.
Now greenling ... they may be a bit overvalued.
-Allen
-
PM was sent re: 'the problem' aka sturgeon undervalued .....but Brian's been awol.
I don't think Sturgeon is really undervalued. The top 3 sturgeon in this years tourney scored very respectably.
Now greenling ... they may be a bit overvalued.
-Allen
Sunfish seem overvalued too, especially comparing to greenling and how hard either would be to target and catch.
-
so allen, can we just pay for 2010 and it will be applied to 2011?
Actually, give me a couple days to put up a new Paypal link.
-Allen
ok thanks a bunch, i will wait
-
Do you all know that one of the outcomes of the first AOTY's was just to get people out fishing for a variety of fish they normally didn't fish for?
And ... the points per inch were roughly calculated assuming an good size for a particular fish resulted in 150 points and that a great fish should push 200 points. Or something like that. The scoring was never intended to take into account the relative difficultly of catching various species.
It would be very easy for us to just calculate the mean or median size caught in the history of AOTY for each species and determine points per inch that results in 150 points for that size. Level the playing field ... apply math and out pops a number, no need to add any subjectivity (emotions?) into this. :smt002
-Allen
-
Are the sturgeon smaller fish in NW? I think that I saw them getting 3.5 on NWKA. Is that right? I think BSteves is trying to iron out AOTY on another site right now. I think that all the values are fine. Sturgeon should probably get a small bump though. .25 -.5 Good thing they lowered the WSB from 5 to 4 or my fish would have been 265 points for a slightly above average WSB.
-
InIt!! toWITNESSit!! :smt002
p.s......Go Fishing!!! and don't forget your CAMERA (&trough of coarse:smt002)
-
Just a thought,
Why not go off the "Trophy" size of each fish at 100 points (in the case of a slot limit set the mid point at 100) and do the math from there to get your inch value?
This will level the playing field
As for difficulty level - it is all relevant to your location and experiance as some who live in the north coast will have less problem catching Steelhead and Rockfish while others in the valley would be more likely to catch Bass and Crappie.
Also just because you have to sit and wait for a sturgeon to bite doesn't mean that it is harder to catch than a bass you may have to cast 100 times to with precision accuracy.
To some difficulty is measured by how much physical effort is used while others only look at how long things take to accomplish.
Either way I will be glad to pay my fee and hope to catch a few along the way :smt004
See Ya Soon,
Eric / Yakhopper
-
Im down, just tell me what i need to do.....other than catch fish.
Anthony
-
As for difficulty level - it is all relevant to your location and experiance as some who live in the north coast will have less problem catching Steelhead and Rockfish while others in the valley would be more likely to catch Bass and Crappie
Why hell, Eric. It seems us northern boys do know how to catch bass and crappie. Except for me of course. Got me a nice LMB though. And that damn Bird whooooooooooooooooo-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee he sho does know them bass and crappie. :smt044
-
Do you all know that one of the outcomes of the first AOTY's was just to get people out fishing for a variety of fish they normally didn't fish for?
no need to add any subjectivity (emotions?) into this. :smt002
-Allen
Allen, I thought that starting in 2006 the contest was to determine who was the best kayak angler for that year. First we had Mooch and then ChuckE, SBD, and last year HT. So far the contest has IMO done a great job of showcasing some terrific anglers and their skills. The best fishermen have risen to the top every year and I salute each of them. Again there's no 'need' to add emotion into the discussion.....because when we're talkin bout fishing.....THE EMOTION IS ALWAYS THERE BROTHER!
The current max point value for sturgeon is the only glaring deficiency in the current system. A 66" sturgeon should be worth close to the max value possible for any of the other species none of which will be caught larger than 66". It's simply wrong to undervalue this one species which also happens to be the largest species attainable in Norcal. We have 200+ point salmon, halibut, and wsb currently posted up and that's great. But unless a change is made we will never see a 200+ point dino. And that's just wrong.
I'm not going to quibble about the shit fish.....or the junk fish.....or the garbage fish. I'm just going to keep catching them :smt005 until one day.....maybe someday.....I will finally have 'my day'.....and catch a dino. Hopefully by then it will be equal to the other great sport fishes and not treated like a common subhuman trash fish. I feel really badly for all the hard pipe-hitting, blowtorch wielding, tough as nails fishermen who persevered this year, caught their dinos, and then were denied their righteous glory by the current point structure.
LET JUSTICE BE SERVED! and please give dinos their rightful due. Thank you, jim :smt001
-
As a newbie in this contest and to this great club, i think the current AOTY rules are just find. I agree as well sturgy's should have a higher point value. Im grateful to have 20 diff. fish to fish for and enter as i noticed this was the first year for that. I do semi-think tho, that some anglers depending on where they live have a better opportunity to get some species, but honestly its all fair when you have 20 species of fish! Imo, you could catch the same species in quite a few different places, but catching a quality size fish of a certain species are mostly to be had or caught in SPECIFIC bodies of water. For example, this was the first year the american r. had a season in 3 years, but the average fish was only 12-15lbs, where the smith r. salmon up north avg. 25-35lbs...I know where im fishin for salmon next year!! Im finding it to be just smarter to head to waters where a species of fish grows bigger no matter where it is!
-
I still don't know why sturgeon should be singled out. The largest of each species should all have maximum equivalent value I'd even argue that catching the largest sturgeon in the SLOT is a hell of a lot easier than catching the biggest of each species.
-Allen
-
I still don't know why sturgeon should be singled out. Why? Because.....The largest of each species should all have maximum equivalent value. YES!
-Allen
Allen, you are right again. The big-game sport fish should have close , and by close I mean give or take some points as there is no making it exactly equal, to equal value and as soon as points for sturgeon are raised.....they will.
"The largest of each species." Remember which one of those 'species' is actually the 'largest'.
As there is only one.....The diamondback in the rough.....THE MIGHTY STURGEON! :smt023
-
You can't just look at max score.
Brian extracted statistical information on AOTY catches over all of time and used the current point values. Statistically speaking WSB is the best. Sturgeon, Steelhead, and Greenling are next. The rest are mostly decent with flounder being an the worst on the other end of things.
So, I don't actually think the sturgeon argument hold water. Are greenling over-valued? Yes. Are flounder under-valued? Yes.
-Allen
-
Of course we should look at max score. That is what everybody's fishing for isn't it?
-
Of course we should look at max score. That is what everybody's fishing for isn't it?
Maybe in your tournament ...
Everyone is fishing for max TOTAL score. Look at the big picture.
The median score for sturgeon is currently higher than everything except steelhead and WSB.
-Allen
-
I can see now that any further attempts on my part to explain my pov are a waste of time. You didn't have to suggest I start my own tourney. After all you were the one that stated you would listen to input. So as it stands every species except sturgeon will be able to score over 200. It's that simple. Thanks for seeing my pov Ricci. Jim
-
Jim, you think sturgeon are undervalued because the max score can't be 200. I think sturgeon are overvalued because their median score is higher than most other species' median scores. We can't win with this one because there is a slot limit. Can't you be happy knowing that if you catch one that you can enter, that the score will likely be higher than if you caught a typical fish of another species? Yes, they have a higher point value than other species, just not a higher max point value.
-Allen
-
Jim, you dont need a sturgeon anymore so its a moot point. Enjoy life. Fish for specie that are fun to fish for. Fishing for sturgeon offers some glory if you hook-up, but hey, chances are you'll just freeze your sac for nuttin'. :smt006 I wasnt going to do AOTY in 2011, but now? I am going to win without a sturgeon or a crappie. :smt003 Sturgeon was just something to do while I waited for hali's and rock.
-
Enjoy life. Fish for specie that are fun to fish for.
Amen Brutha Davis! :smt109
-
I can see now that any further attempts on my part to explain my pov are a waste of time. You didn't have to suggest I start my own tourney. After all you were the one that stated you would listen to input. So as it stands every species except sturgeon will be able to score over 200. It's that simple. Thanks for seeing my pov Ricci. Jim
BTW Jim, I wasn't insinuating that you start your own tourney. I was making a point that your views on the current tourney are your own. There doesn't seem to be a lot of support for sturgeon being re-valued even though you think you're speaking for everyone. I listened to your input and countered with what I believe to be relevant facts.
Allen, you are correct in that there is no 'need' per se but I do believe there may be a desire among many if not all the competitors to allow more points for sturgeon. It's a shame that this year's largest fish is worth so little. I hope that wrong will soon be made right. Jim
I don't know how you can speak to the "desire among many if not all the competitors" when I see it as your own POV, nothing more. And again, the largest fish is NOT "worth so little". On average it is worth quite a bit. It hardly seems like a "wrong" to me.
-Allen
-
Why are sturgeon 3.5 on NWKA and 3 on NCKA? It seems that the same people are setting the scoring charts for both sites. Whats up with that? Curious here. Thanks.
-
Why are sturgeon 3.5 on NWKA and 3 on NCKA? It seems that the same people are setting the scoring charts for both sites. Whats up with that? Curious here. Thanks.
The rules up in the NW are to measure fork length, because that's how the size limits are determined. 3.5 makes up for the difference.
-Allen
-
Ah, thats right! Now I do remember seeing one being measured that way. Thanks Allen. Eveything is good. Mo matter what the scores are its still a level playing field. As far as scoring goes anyway. :smt002 Fish-on! Now how can I beat Allen with one day left? Sturgeon? Crappie? Striper? Its frickin cold out there. :smt006
-
Oh, Hi O2B. :smt006
-
I see no point in belaboring that my opinions are my own other than a crude attempt to shut me up.
My statement that every competitor is fishing for the maximum score is true & irrefutable.
I see support for doing the right thing and you don't. The difference is I have been talking with every single angler I ran into all year long regarding this subject and every single one of them agreed with me on this subject. If you doubt the integrity of that statement then you are mistaken.
I speak to the desire of the competitors to do the right thing if they had a voice which apparently they don't.
It sounds like there will be even more points given to crappie, perch, and flounder in an attempt to 'raise their median value' and possibly less for sturgeon, wsb, and steelhead to lower their median value. Have you been flooded with support to do all that? I guess this may be where someone will chime in and tell me to not participate if I don't like fishing for crappie & perch. To that I say..... :smt006
-
Oh, Hi O2B. :smt006
Yes.....thanks for the support! :smt006
-
We can't win with this one because there is a slot limit. We could if the value were raised to 3.6 points. Can't you be happy knowing that if you catch one that you can enter, that the score will likely be higher than if you caught a typical fish of another species? 46" sturgeon = 138 points, 12" crappie = 144 points, 12" perch = 144 points, 13" greenling = 143 points. I could go on & on but just about any 'typical' fish will beat a sturgeon. That is clear. But your mind is already made up so I'm done.
-Allen
I tried to do the right thing and I failed.
Dear Mr.Sturgeon Fisherman I'm sorry I let you down. :smt010
The 'Crappie People', who ever they are, Win Again! :smt011
-
All,
I know I am new, but in looking at the average size of the fish, the amount you can take in one outing I can see the point of Saltydog, but I can also see the point of PolePole. Considering the DFG rules for white sturgeon being 46 inches total length or greater than 66 inches, and the One fish per day. Three fish per year statewide, compared to the other average size of the other fish and take, am I missing something, is it really that big of a deal? If you caught your limit of Sturgeon for the outing and at the 66in and a 3 point value, then you are at 198 points. The average size of the sturgeon is far greater than any of the fish on the list, but it is my understanding that this is not a species tournament, but that of an angler. I for one, know that I will not go after sturgeon, out of choice, but will have to out catch those that do to make points, even with higher point values, in that trout, and bass, are not going to be even near. It is more of the anglers choice of catch. If you land the sturgy, then you will most likely not call it a day and will be fishing the other species on the list, of which you will have all the same point values. I for one could care less if the Sturgy we upped to 3.5 or 4 points. In looking back at the top 3 fish for each species in the past AOTY, the point score for the size was pretty much equal to the other fish and I don't think a 33 or 66 point difference over the year is going to make a difference, even if you max out at 3 total for the year, that being said is it harder to catch a sturgeon than other fish? I would say yes, in that in the past 20 years I have not landed one, but have not tried either. Guess it depends on how many times you go out after them.
Just a newbie opinion, so be kind :fish4
-
"I don't think a 33 or 66 point difference over the year is going to make a difference"
Well, if you look at the standings with one day to go your point is worthless.
-
I see no point in belaboring that my opinions are my own other than a crude attempt to shut me up.
If I wanted you to shut up, I'd ask you to. No crude attempt needed.
My statement that every competitor is fishing for the maximum score is true & irrefutable.
Max TOTAL score, of which sturgeon would potentially be 1/10.
I see support for doing the right thing and you don't.
Your definition of the right thing. That doesn't make it the right thing for everyone.
The difference is I have been talking with every single angler I ran into all year long regarding this subject and every single one of them agreed with me on this subject. If you doubt the integrity of that statement then you are mistaken.
I don't doubt the integrity of that statement. But, not one angler I've talked to, other than you, believes sturgeon points need to be raised. If you doubt the integrity of that statement then you are mistaken.
I speak to the desire of the competitors to do the right thing if they had a voice which apparently they don't.
You absolutely do NOT speak for every competitor.
It sounds like there will be even more points given to crappie, perch, and flounder in an attempt to 'raise their median value' and possibly less for sturgeon, wsb, and steelhead to lower their median value.
Really? Who said that?
Have you been flooded with support to do all that?
To tell you the truth, I have exactly zero comments in my inbox other than from you. So I infer that the majority of participants are fine with the status quo. I just don't see the overwhelming support for what you are stating.
-Allen
-
Brian extracted statistical information on AOTY catches over all of time and used the current point values. Statistically speaking WSB is the best. Sturgeon, Steelhead, and Greenling are next. The rest are mostly decent with flounder being an the worst on the other end of things.
So, I don't actually think the sturgeon argument hold water. Are greenling over-valued? Yes. Are flounder under-valued? Yes.
-Allen
-
any talk that I'm aware of about changing the rules for 2011 AOTY. The only thing we might do is adjust some points per inch-Allen
If crappie & perch are 're-adjusted' to reflect 150 point average for say a 10" fish being average then they both will go up from 12 to 15 points each so this year's 15"ers would have been worth 225. I don't like that but I could live with it if & only if sturgeon were given their just value and then a max dino at 3.6 points would equal 237.6. jim
-
Really Jim, you need to take a chill pill. Or put a tinfoil hat on. :smt006
I noted factual observations about points for various species.
I commented that we MIGHT adjust points and that was in separate, earlier post, with no specific reference to any species.
And I never commented on crappie or perch.
-Allen
-
You be the judge.
-Allen
-
Again with the shutting me up? I recall something about 're-adjusting' each species to reflect 'average' value of 150 points. Since I believe that perch, crappie, & greenling are slightly, but not much, already over-valued.....well I'm throwing that out there for everyone to digest. But dinos are the real problem. jim
PS: As far as tinfoil goes how do you like this? :smt003
-
If you are going to try to quote me, keep it in context. Nothing definitive said here.
There hasn't been any talk that I'm aware of about changing the rules for 2011 AOTY. The only thing we might do is adjust some points per inch, but even that hasn't been discussed. Sometimes it's easier to just leave things as is ...
-Allen
And I took great pains to make sure the 150 points comment wasn't to be taken as gospel. "Roughly" doesn't mean exactly. And "something like that" doesn't mean exactly either.
Do you all know that one of the outcomes of the first AOTY's was just to get people out fishing for a variety of fish they normally didn't fish for?
And ... the points per inch were roughly calculated assuming an good size for a particular fish resulted in 150 points and that a great fish should push 200 points. Or something like that. The scoring was never intended to take into account the relative difficultly of catching various species.
It would be very easy for us to just calculate the mean or median size caught in the history of AOTY for each species and determine points per inch that results in 150 points for that size. Level the playing field ... apply math and out pops a number, no need to add any subjectivity (emotions?) into this. :smt002
-Allen
Brian and I talked over using the median and setting it to something like 150. It didn't work out at first pass because as you can see from the chart, there are some species with huge variations in points. Setting the mean to 150 made things unbalanced in other regards.
Nice tin outfit!!!
-Allen
-
Cute outfit Jim. When you get nuked you wont feel a thing. :smt003
-
And ... the points per inch were roughly calculated assuming an good size for a particular fish resulted in 150 points and that a great fish should push 200 points.
Brian and I talked over using the median and setting it to something like 150. It didn't work out at first pass because as you can see from the chart, there are some species with huge variations in points. Setting the mean to 150 made things unbalanced in other regards.
Nice tin outfit!!!
-Allen
Hey I'm glad you guys came to that conclusion. As I said before I think the other species are O.K. except sturgeon. I apologize for slightly quoting out of context. Just trying my best to advocate for the poor maligned sturgeon here. :smt002
Hopefully this discussion will spur others to think about the subject.
Anglers can bet on a decent chance of catching a perch, a crappie, a greenling, etc every year.....but the same cannot be said of catching a legal kayak sturgeon, of any size, every single year. There is a reason why the limit is only three per year and of all the game fish in CA that is unique. I know the 'current' rules do not take any of that into account but.....just maybe they should.
I wish others that agree with me would chime in but I'm not gonna hold my breath. :smt001 jim
-
IMO, I think some people here take AOTY too serious! :smt003
-
Some people make a simple request.....and get what they want.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,21879.0.html (http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,21879.0.html)
-
I agree that STURGEON are the hiccup in the whole deal but I still don't see them as harder to catch.
I have certainly caught more large sturgeon than large catfish. I have also caught more large Sturgeon than Large Greenling. Also More large Sturgeon than large Lingcod. In fact it would be safe to say that Sturgeon are pretty easy to catch as long as you are patient enough to wait till they are feeding. Believe it or not this is true for almost any fish - if you wait till they are either feeding or spawning most fish most fish become easier to catch. So why the big fuss over Sturgeon - because they have a limited size of catch? If this is the case than to be fair to all anglers the min. legal size should represent the least amount of any other measurable species and the max. legal size should be equal to the max of any other measurable species. Of course we could always take the lead from the Govt. and just block it from the competition and say we are trying to protect it.
Just my 2-cents
-
Eric, I wish I could catch ANY sturgeon. I think it's great you are so good at catching them but.....where is your 2010 AOTY sturgeon? :smt005
-
Sturgeon ....easy to catch? I want to fish alongside you! Let me see....when I first signed on to this site it seemed they were the most difficult to catch but that was when there were only ten fish. Now it seems a crappy is the new sturgeon.
-
IMO, I think some people here take AOTY too serious! :smt003
Nothing to lose sleep over? There are at least four guys that are less than a moderate crappy behind me.....maybe already ahead of me. I didn't sleep a wink last night....don't see much hope for tonight or tomorrow either.....
-
Thanks for posting the data Allen.
Looking at the Flounder plot, I suspect the median and avg appear lower because the category includes 2 really different species (at least). There is a cluster of points with low scores (sand dabs) and a cluster with higher scores (starry flounder). Maybe starry flounder pt/inch is reasonable, while sand dabs should be separated out, dropped or scored higher if there is interest in trying to balance across species/categories.
-
IMO, I think some people here take AOTY too serious! :smt003
Nothing to lose sleep over? There are at least four guys that are less than a moderate crappy behind me.....maybe already ahead of me. I didn't sleep a wink last night....don't see much hope for tonight or tomorrow either.....
I rest my case! :smt044
-
IMO, I think some people here take AOTY too serious! :smt003
Nothing to lose sleep over? There are at least four guys that are less than a moderate crappy behind me.....maybe already ahead of me. I didn't sleep a wink last night....don't see much hope for tonight or tomorrow either.....
I rest my case! :smt044
Exactly! :smt044
-
Hahahah, sturgeon easy to catch. Thats rich dude. Real rich. You guys closed new years day? The herring are spawning like crazy at Coyote point right now and the dinos are there. Do it man.
-
Hahahah, sturgeon easy to catch.
Maybe for you...didn't I sit alongside you one day at OAP and you caught a couple including a monster green sturgeon...yeah, easy for you. :smt003
-
I want to fish alongside you!
I fished with Eric once. If ever you would like to know how inadequate your skills are, that's the place to find out :smt002
-
Some people make a simple request.....and get what they want.
http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,21879.0.html (http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,21879.0.html)
actually, i didnt want spotted bass as their own category, i just wanted them counted as a bass, didnt seem reasonable for a black bass to not count in the tournament whatsoever. i didnt ask for 20 fish categories, that was come up by the committee.
-
i still can't believe crappie are even on the list. This ain't the f*ckin dime ride at chucke cheese. This is the highly coveted and heavily sought after NCKA-AOTY TITLE. In addition to being fairly dangerous and extremely painful to fish for; sturgeon are pretty f*ckin hard to come by. IMO, the fact that a crappie can be worth the same as a sturgeon is absolutely ridiculous. I vote for a sturgeon point increase. Is it time to vote yet?
-
Is it time to vote yet?
Nope, it's not time to vote. It's time to lock this thread down.
But I'll leave you with this thought.
The top 5 are separated by <100 points. Their average points per fish vary <10 points. And if sturgeon had an increased points per inch, the top 5 would not have changed. That's a pretty tight grouping at the top.
At NWKA it gets even better. This week Zee entered a fish that tied him (exactly!) for first. Then yesterday he entered a fish that put him in first. Another photo finish over there.
We must be doing something right to have exciting photo finishes like this. Why mess with something if it ain't broken?
-Allen