NorCal Kayak Anglers

General => General Talk => Topic started by: HamachiJohn on September 18, 2017, 12:53:38 PM

Title: Hobie copy?
Post by: HamachiJohn on September 18, 2017, 12:53:38 PM
Saw this on the BWE forum...

https://u-boat.m.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2706.7835515.1998800312.19.x3lOxr

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Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: krusty on September 18, 2017, 01:25:28 PM
That link is not working. What is the link to bwe?
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: HamachiJohn on September 18, 2017, 01:34:41 PM
That link is not working. What is the link to bwe?
https://u-boat.m.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2706.7835515.1998800312.19.x3lOxr

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Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: HamachiJohn on September 18, 2017, 01:35:29 PM
That link is not working. What is the link to bwe?
Re posted

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Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: SmokeOnTheWater on September 18, 2017, 01:46:33 PM
Just give it a few months, you will probably see/hear the horror stories.   :smt044
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Dannarchy on September 18, 2017, 02:29:31 PM
Ms. Lisa Chen
Job Title: Sales
City:   Ningbo
Address:   RM 308-313 Xincheng Guoji Fulou, No.535 Qingshuiqiao Rd, Jiangdong
Zip:   315040
Country/Region:   China (Mainland)
Province/State:   Zhejiang


Clearly a knock off.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: krusty on September 18, 2017, 02:38:43 PM
You can buy 5 of them for the price of a single hobie! You make it sound like plastic hobies are high tech kayaks. I hope they replaced the cables, pulley, and chains with sealed gears.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Dannarchy on September 18, 2017, 03:11:51 PM
You can buy 5 of them for the price of a single hobie! You make it sound like plastic hobies are high tech kayaks. I hope they replaced the cables, pulley, and chains with sealed gears.

Yes because all knockoffs from China are always better quality.  :smt044 :smt044 :smt044
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: krusty on September 18, 2017, 03:35:07 PM
You can buy 5 of them for the price of a single hobie! You make it sound like plastic hobies are high tech kayaks. I hope they replaced the cables, pulley, and chains with sealed gears.

Yes because all knockoffs from China are always better quality.  :smt044 :smt044 :smt044

Chinese products do not need to be of better quality to sell well. Price point matters a great deal. If all we care about is better quality, no one would be buying plastic kayaks.

I think you should go around your house and check everything you own to see where they are made. You would be very surprised at how many products are made in china.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Dannarchy on September 18, 2017, 03:42:50 PM
You can buy 5 of them for the price of a single hobie! You make it sound like plastic hobies are high tech kayaks. I hope they replaced the cables, pulley, and chains with sealed gears.

Yes because all knockoffs from China are always better quality.  :smt044 :smt044 :smt044

Chinese products do not need to be of better quality to sell well. Price point matters a great deal. If all we care about is better quality, no one would be buying plastic kayaks.

I think you should go around your house and check everything you own to see where they are made. You would be very surprised at how many products are made in china.

I know exactly how many products I have made in China. Not one of them are a cheap illegal knock off, but I agree price point matters. The other question is: Are all kayak plastics the same?
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: krusty on September 18, 2017, 04:22:40 PM
You can buy 5 of them for the price of a single hobie! You make it sound like plastic hobies are high tech kayaks. I hope they replaced the cables, pulley, and chains with sealed gears.

Yes because all knockoffs from China are always better quality.  :smt044 :smt044 :smt044

Chinese products do not need to be of better quality to sell well. Price point matters a great deal. If all we care about is better quality, no one would be buying plastic kayaks.

I think you should go around your house and check everything you own to see where they are made. You would be very surprised at how many products are made in china.

I know exactly how many products I have made in China. Not one of them are a cheap illegal knock off, but I agree price point matters. The other question is: Are all kayak plastics the same?

Good for you if you never downloaded or streamed illegal music or movies.

Of course not all plastic kayaks are the same. Different models have different characteristics to suit different market segments.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Sin Coast on September 18, 2017, 05:08:24 PM
I was browsing that alibaba site last night and saw knockoff Hobies (from this company U-boat) and knockoff Natives & other pedal drive yaks too. Priced at like $500-600 if you order a whole shipping container haha...
https://m.alibaba.com/product/60560401033/Fishing-Pedal-Kayak-Single.html?spm=a2706.7835515.1998800312.29.GQXGau#show_specifications
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: NowhereMan on September 18, 2017, 07:31:28 PM
Don't think I'd trust a kayak called "U-boat"...
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: & on September 19, 2017, 02:50:59 AM
MOQ = 1. Who curious, wanna chip in on boat share? 
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Dannarchy on September 19, 2017, 07:50:12 AM
You can buy 5 of them for the price of a single hobie! You make it sound like plastic hobies are high tech kayaks. I hope they replaced the cables, pulley, and chains with sealed gears.

Yes because all knockoffs from China are always better quality.  :smt044 :smt044 :smt044

Chinese products do not need to be of better quality to sell well. Price point matters a great deal. If all we care about is better quality, no one would be buying plastic kayaks.

I think you should go around your house and check everything you own to see where they are made. You would be very surprised at how many products are made in china.

I know exactly how many products I have made in China. Not one of them are a cheap illegal knock off, but I agree price point matters. The other question is: Are all kayak plastics the same?

Good for you if you never downloaded or streamed illegal music or movies.

Of course not all plastic kayaks are the same. Different models have different characteristics to suit different market segments.

My point is the quality isn't going to be the same. The plastic used by Hobie, Wildy, Native, Ocean, or any other quality kayak builder is going to be much better than the plastic used by U-Boats knock offs made in China. The same goes for the pedal drive systems. Just look at the CEO vs BMW X5 or any other knock off product coming out of China.

I'm not standing on moral high ground, I'm looking at it from a ROI perspective. Sure you can buy a few knock offs for the same price as the Hobie, but at what actual cost. Are you going to trust a manufacture that steals designs, but doesn't meet the same quality standards with your life? What recourse will you have when the product fails on the ocean and someone dies? It took BMW 8 years and hundreds of millions to win its case to which China said "yeah you got us... So what".
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: bmb on September 19, 2017, 08:30:36 AM
My point is the quality isn't going to be the same. The plastic used by Hobie, Wildy, Native, Ocean, or any other quality kayak builder is going to be much better than the plastic used by U-Boats knock offs made in China. The same goes for the pedal drive systems. Just look at the CEO vs BMW X5 or any other knock off product coming out of China.

I'm not standing on moral high ground, I'm looking at it from a ROI perspective. Sure you can buy a few knock offs for the same price as the Hobie, but at what actual cost. Are you going to trust a manufacture that steals designs, but doesn't meet the same quality standards with your life? What recourse will you have when the product fails on the ocean and someone dies? It took BMW 8 years and hundreds of millions to win its case to which China said "yeah you got us... So what".
You can't tell that by looking at a picture of it on the internet.  It may be true, or it may not be.  Plastic quality isn't a US monopoly.  At its core, its still just plastic.  Design matters, and components matter.  Most of these drive systems have parts that are sourced overseas.  It is very possible that these chinese manufacturers have access to the exact same parts and components as their US competitors.  After all, one of the most popular kayak companies these days is FeelFree, and their boats are decent quality, but could use some refinements to make things better.  But are they safe? Yes. 

I've been purchasing chinese (branded) stuff for years.  List of the chinese (branded) things I own:
baitcasting reels
fishing rods
gopro knockoff
robot vacuum
fishing lures - jerkbaits and jigs

All of these are as high quality as the US counterparts. They're not cheap or chintzy, they're smooth, refined and high quality. Some have improvements over the US counterpart.

These chinese knockoff kayaks, at least per the pictures, look pretty bad.  But that doesn't mean they can't make better ones with the same components.  Are they "good" enough?  I don't know.  But you can't just discount them.  I'm sure if I wanted to and had a bunch of money, that I could go to china, find all the components I need and a high quality industrial oven and go for it to make a good kayak.  It's not like kayaks are difficult to build* and that chinese employees can't be trained to build* them.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: WillFo on September 19, 2017, 08:36:02 AM
My wife used to work in product development dealing with Chinese manufacturers. They will sell you whatever level of quality you are willing to pay for. If you want cheap crap, they can do that. If you are willing to pay for quality they can do that too.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: newfuturevintage on September 19, 2017, 08:37:40 AM
Don't think I'd trust a kayak called "U-boat"...

This.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: The X Inn Keeper on September 19, 2017, 08:52:56 AM
All this complaining about Chinese knock off and how they use cheap plastic, yet I see more RTIC coolers and cups everyday.
Are we really concerned about what the product may be, or just Hobie snobs?
I for one won't buy anything untill it proves it's self .... Even if it's American Made.

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Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Mojo Jojo on September 19, 2017, 09:41:01 AM
 :happy1:

Im just here for the entertainment  :smt044
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Dannarchy on September 19, 2017, 10:16:27 AM
All this complaining about Chinese knock off and how they use cheap plastic, yet I see more RTIC coolers and cups everyday.
Are we really concerned about what the product may be, or just Hobie snobs?
I for one won't buy anything untill it proves it's self .... Even if it's American Made.

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I don't have or plan to have a Hobie so I'm clearly not a Hobie snob.

The last time I checked when a cup, camera, cooler, baitcast reel, pole, vacuum or lure failed; ppl didn't go into the water and have to be rescued or worse. Yes there are many fine products coming out of China (even knockoffs), but I am not trusting mine or anyone else's life with a knock off until its proven. When I see a knockoff that looks suspect at 1/5 the cost I tend to want it to be proven it works. yes that goes for GoPro knockoffs also.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Wildrooster on September 21, 2017, 02:16:22 AM
That's very interesting some of the very best Rc High performance gliders come from china
This reminds me of when everyone said Japan makes crap but as it turned out a lot for that crap was made to company standards for American companies
Japan also bought an a lot of the stuff back and reused the material
The nation set a higher standard for its self  and we no longer call things from Japan cheap junk
China definitely has the ability to make any standard of tools or parts
They are behind in car but won't be for long
That said some things in china are made for the company and a nite shift using the same materials and skills make the same product for sale elsewhere
On a side note almost all kayaks are made using the same plastic 
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Life_is_Yak on September 21, 2017, 11:39:46 AM
I'd like to see one in person.  I have an outback and to be honest if I could have gotten a uboat for $550 I'd be stupid to not look at them and weigh the pros and cons.  Plastic is cheap and I'm not sure the different brands of HDLP plastic will make that much difference.  What will make a difference is how the plastic is molded.  If they do a good job of molding and keep uniform thickness I'd be down to try it.. 

This makes me wonder if hobies patent has expired.  Seems like its about time.

Hate to say it but its was bound to happen at some point.  Might see Uboats in walmart soon!  Probably for $1000 or less.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: newfuturevintage on September 21, 2017, 01:15:34 PM

This makes me wonder if hobies patient has expired.  Seems like its about time.


Patent? We don't need no stinkin' patents!
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: & on September 21, 2017, 01:40:02 PM
Quote
This makes me wonder if hobies patient has expired.  Seems like its about time.

Hobes has bunch of issued cases.  If you mean the mirage drive patent, priority date 2005, so still got some legz. 

Quote
Plastic is cheap and I'm not sure the different grades of plastic with make that much difference.  What will make a difference is how the plastic is molded.

the quality and type of plastic make a diff.  belee dat, bruh
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: bioman on September 21, 2017, 01:41:33 PM
Hey Dannarchy, with respect to using chinese boats to go in the water where you might die if the product failed....nearly all the inflatable sport boats (zodiac, west marine, solstice, aquos, Seago, Avon, Mercury, Walker, Aqua Dutch, Sea Eagle, many new brand names) are made in China now.....they can afford labor to do hand lay ups. 
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Life_is_Yak on September 21, 2017, 01:55:04 PM
Quote
This makes me wonder if hobies patient has expired.  Seems like its about time.

Hobes has bunch of issued cases.  If you mean the mirage drive patent, priority date 2005, so still got some legz. 

Quote
Plastic is cheap and I'm not sure the different grades of plastic with make that much difference.  What will make a difference is how the plastic is molded.

the quality and type of plastic make a diff.  belee dat, bruh
I probably should have been more specific.  If their using High Density Linear Polyethylene I don't think the difference in one brand of HDLP will make that much of a difference.  Some may be better than others but in general is pretty good stuff
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: B0B on September 21, 2017, 02:36:31 PM
so is it a kayak or submarine?

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Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: hightide on September 21, 2017, 02:55:07 PM
It might turn into Submarine if not up to specs :smt003
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: & on September 21, 2017, 03:03:50 PM
Quote
but in general is pretty good stuff

Genrully, shur, but sometimes no.  See this product recall (https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2011/bicycle-helmets-recalled-by-bell-sports-due-to-head-injury-hazard) where, against Bell Helmet spex, the asian mfr substituted an ITW Nexus buckle with a lesser quality plastic component.  Plastic ain't just plastic, not all HDLP da same, considering HDLP not single grade substance, i.e., even within "high density" the densities can verry.

not anti-china here, just rilly fuh millyer w issues 4 asian suppliers.  it qan git bad, even with branded goods.  Imagine QC/QA and customer service go off a davenport cliff wrt off-branded or non-branded, open mold stuff.  OTW is no thyme to discover your nu bote is water soluble = no chow fun at all. 
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Life_is_Yak on September 21, 2017, 04:15:48 PM
Quote
Genrully, shur, but sometimes no.  See this product recall (https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2011/bicycle-helmets-recalled-by-bell-sports-due-to-head-injury-hazard) where, against Bell Helmet spex, the asian mfr substituted an ITW Nexus buckle with a lesser quality plastic component.
Interesting recall, but it doesn't list the type of plastic the material is made of.  Could be a completely different grade of plastic.
Quote
Plastic ain't just plastic, not all HDLP da same, considering HDLP not single grade substance, i.e., even within "high density" the densities can verry.

I disagree HDLP is a subgrade of PE and and in so a more specific grade PE.  Given this grade has a range, but if it falls outside of the range it is no longer HDLP it could be LDPE, HDPE, HDXLPE, or something else.  If the manufacture is using something other than HDLP that's completely different argument and would be good reason to reject the boat.

Quote
  OTW is no thyme to discover your nu bote is water soluble = no chow fun at all.
haha maybe I'll add a splash test to the next boat I buy.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: NowhereMan on September 21, 2017, 04:44:30 PM
so is it a kayak or submarine?

Both! You get 2 for 1/10th the price of 1...
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Bushy on September 21, 2017, 05:14:18 PM
More fodder for the Acronym thread?  ROI  BMW X5   CEO  RTIC  Rc HDLP it could be LDPE, HDPE, HDXLPE High Density Linear Polyethylene thank you
Bushy
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: hightide on September 21, 2017, 06:34:27 PM
As long as I won't be needing HELP when using this Chinese HDLP, I'll buy it I when available in the USA!
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Scurvy on September 21, 2017, 09:12:37 PM
Anybody remember that scary Walmart kayak from a couple of years ago?

There's so much more to plastic than being HDPE or HDLPE or LDPE.  For example, if and how the UV inhibitor is introduced to the matrix, then there's the shell thickness, which is something I've noticed about Hobies -- they have the thickest/most rigid hulls I've seen yet -- versus the cheapies, which could be easily deformed by hand pressure.  These qualities are not possible to check until the submarine is in hand....
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Life_is_Yak on September 21, 2017, 09:22:39 PM
Anybody remember that scary Walmart kayak from a couple of years ago?

There's so much more to plastic than being HDPE or HDLPE or LDPE.  For example, if and how the UV inhibitor is introduced to the matrix, then there's the shell thickness, which is something I've noticed about Hobies -- they have the thickest/most rigid hulls I've seen yet -- versus the cheapies, which could be easily deformed by hand pressure.  These qualities are not possible to check until the submarine is in hand....
Agreed. Not worth the risk buying unseen.

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Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Tote on September 21, 2017, 09:39:04 PM
Looks like they turned an old Bic kayak into a Hobie or visa versa.
The wheel skeg and handle from the Bic, the pedal from Hobie.
Not sure which company should feel more violated.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: krusty on September 21, 2017, 11:07:15 PM
And hobie hulls never developed cracks at the yakgina. :smt002
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Fishcomb on September 22, 2017, 12:10:56 AM
i need this helmet stat!

(http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1R20_MFXXXXbNXpXXq6xXFXXX5/200427993/HTB1R20_MFXXXXbNXpXXq6xXFXXX5.jpg)

 :smt044
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Wildrooster on September 22, 2017, 12:18:29 AM
I forgot the brand but a read about a test used to test an import boat from the USA to Japan they required x amout of weight dropped into a boat from said height it's been a long time so my details are scetchy
In any case there are ways to test
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Tote on September 22, 2017, 05:40:10 AM
I forgot the brand but a read about a test used to test an import boat from the USA to Japan they required x amout of weight dropped into a boat from said height it's been a long time so my details are scetchy
In any case there are ways to test

Here's one way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uGlClNW6n0
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: newfuturevintage on September 22, 2017, 08:25:37 AM
I forgot the brand but a read about a test used to test an import boat from the USA to Japan they required x amout of weight dropped into a boat from said height it's been a long time so my details are scetchy
In any case there are ways to test

Here's one way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uGlClNW6n0

Well shit, I think I found my new career path.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Dannarchy on September 22, 2017, 08:33:27 AM
Hey Dannarchy, with respect to using chinese boats to go in the water where you might die if the product failed....nearly all the inflatable sport boats (zodiac, west marine, solstice, aquos, Seago, Avon, Mercury, Walker, Aqua Dutch, Sea Eagle, many new brand names) are made in China now.....they can afford labor to do hand lay ups.

None of those are knockoffs with little to no quality control. I guess the part where I said "Sure there are a lot of quality products coming out of China" was missed.

I cant wait to see all of you on the water in your brand new U-Boat next season.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Scurvy on September 22, 2017, 09:35:09 AM
On the PLUS side, the U-boat might offer the fisherperson the great opportunity to skip the FF by simply seeing the fishies from under water!   :smt044 :smt044
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: NowhereMan on September 22, 2017, 10:46:14 AM
On the PLUS side, the U-boat might offer the fisherperson the great opportunity to skip the FF by simply seeing the fishies from under water!   :smt044 :smt044

"On the water" or "under the water", that is the question...
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: & on September 22, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
if pedaled quickly enough, you can get it to plane
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: Wildrooster on September 25, 2017, 11:06:51 AM
I here they have a glass bottom so you can watch shark attacks in real time and find fish without a fish finder with options like that how could you pass it up. Lol
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: NowhereMan on September 25, 2017, 02:12:46 PM
(http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1R20_MFXXXXbNXpXXq6xXFXXX5/200427993/HTB1R20_MFXXXXbNXpXXq6xXFXXX5.jpg)

That looks like some prime steelhead habitat...
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: OVillanueva on September 25, 2017, 02:20:51 PM
Hobie + Moken style keel
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: JimmyD on October 13, 2017, 08:21:40 AM
Where is Hobie manufactured?


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Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: crash on October 13, 2017, 08:33:14 AM
Where is Hobie manufactured?


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San Diego California
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: & on October 13, 2017, 10:45:49 AM
Where is Hobie manufactured?


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San Diego California

Really??  That would be awesome, but shocking
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: bmb on October 13, 2017, 10:55:07 AM
Where is Hobie manufactured?


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San Diego California

Really??  That would be awesome, but shocking
Its Oceanside.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: crash on October 13, 2017, 11:45:56 AM
Where is Hobie manufactured?


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San Diego California

Really??  That would be awesome, but shocking
Its Oceanside.

San Diego County, California.
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: bmb on October 13, 2017, 11:51:14 AM
Where is Hobie manufactured?


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San Diego California

Really??  That would be awesome, but shocking
Its Oceanside.

San Diego County, California.
c'mon dude, anyone who knows anything knows its called North County. 
Title: Re: Hobie copy?
Post by: crash on October 13, 2017, 11:54:56 AM
Where is Hobie manufactured?


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San Diego California

Really??  That would be awesome, but shocking
Its Oceanside.

San Diego County, California.
c'mon dude, anyone who knows anything knows its called North County. 

Somewhere north of the wall, North County, California