NorCal Kayak Anglers
Kayak Fishing Zone => Safety First => Topic started by: polepole on July 06, 2017, 08:14:15 AM
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I posted this on facebook last night, and started a mini-shitstorm. Thought it might be good fodder for discussion here. Have at it!
-Allen
I know I might receive a bit of heat for this ...
Who are you to tell me to always wear a PFD? Are you the same person that tells me I must use a bicycle helmet, wear a seatbelt, or cross in the crosswalk? Meh! I think it's better to educate people, but still leave the decision up to them. Education does not mean bullying, or goading, or guilting. I know when I need a PFD, but I also know when it is below my risk tolerance, and at those times may choose not to wear one. So what of it?
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All you can do is preach it.
People take risks in all sorts of ways. I am pretty much tired of telling people how dangerous it is to go into 50 degree water without one. Now I just tell them how to call the coast guard and that they have to speak clear while they are in shock so that someone may be able to come and help but most likely after they are so cold they can't hang on any longer. Then they say with what radio.
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:smt005.... I cant even keep up with the shitstorm you started hefe!! :smt005 :smt008 :smt006
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Yeah, I make a point of mentioning PFDs when talking to folks I know are just getting into paddling, but I don't mention it anymore to randos on the water or in the parking lot. I just steer clear of them now sadly.
folks are always going to get them selves wrecked not matter what information they have been given.
My problem with the whole "I know when I need a PFD, but I also know when it is below my risk tolerance, and at those times may choose not to wear one. So what of it?" argument is that things tend to transition from "no problem" to "big problem" faster than anyone can don a PFD that is stored in a hatch.
but whaddya gon do?
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I don't bother preaching it to most people. Someone that a is sincerely interested, that is another story.
As for me, I know what I'm doing, I've learned from my experiences and those of others. I don't need safety Nazis preaching to me. Damn, I hate the safety Nazis!
Does that stir the pot a bit?
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things tend to transition from "no problem" to "big problem" faster than anyone can don a PFD that is stored in a hatch
Yep
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My problem with the whole "I know when I need a PFD, but I also know when it is below my risk tolerance, and at those times may choose not to wear one. So what of it?" argument is that things tend to transition from "no problem" to "big problem" faster than anyone can don a PFD that is stored in a hatch.
but whaddya gon do?
I trust in my skills to assess the situation such that I would have chosen to wear a PFD in this case. Note, I wear a PFD 99.9% of the time. However, it was pointed out on fb that my argument should be less about me. So let's take "me" out of this equation. My problem is with the safety cop attitude that many take, one that does not foster an atmosphere of education and growth.
-Allen
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...
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It's America. Everyone has the God given right to die of stupidity. I know I wear one, so that's me covered.
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It's America. Everyone has the God given right to die of stupidity. I know I wear one, so that's me covered.
This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem. First, you assume someone is going to die. Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.
-Allen
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But if I keep it to myself...how is that at all effecting you...or whomever the hypothetical person is?
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But if I keep it to myself...how is that at all effecting you...or whomever the hypothetical person is?
But you didn't keep it to yourself. :smt002
-Allen
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As an avid kayaker I have never really been much of a PFD police, more of one that will put on my PFD, make sure my kids have theirs on and go play in the water. To newbies interested in fishing within my circle, I will point out the benefits of wearing one, as well as the pitfalls of not wearing one. It is their choice in the end as to whether they wear one or not, but will be fishing alone. This has never failed me.
Folks in the wild that I do get to chatting with that are Micheal Phelps in their own minds saying that PFD's are for pussies get reassured that if I am the responder to their near drowning experience, it will come at a price. That price is not negotiated up front and will be swift, knowing how a panicking victim can cause harm to myself in the course of helping them. I will reduce this harm to myself, while still providing assistance to the Micheal Phelps currently at the mercy of God. To this day, I have not had to exercise my payment plan for a failing Micheal Phelps.
Great topic to keep on your mind while playing on the water.
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Bottom line, I wear one for the people with me, my family, and the responders that (god forbid) might be looking for me.
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Because we are having a discussion? I thought that was the point of this lol. My brain just exploded:light
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I'm just mad cause Allens thread has more views than mine ..Stoopid
Allen
:smt002 :smt007 :smt006
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This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem. First, you assume someone is going to die. Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.
-Allen
I don't think people assume someone will die going out.
I limit suggesting safety to those who are curious and ask or when they have kids they are putting in a dangerous situation.
Over the past couple weeks I talked to a family who were taking their kids on the ocean in a small aluminum boat. They at least had life vests on so I gave them some navigation tips because they were visiting and asked.
I told a mother that her children were playing in the surf where there was a rip tide and that it could pull them out in a blink of an eye.
I even mentioned to a tourist that was walking on the cliffs that there are such things as sneaker waves and people have died from unexpected waves and falling off the cliffs.
I wasn't being the safety police and only felt like they may have just not known the dangers.
Then I meet an older kayaker who is going out on his own and saw a life vest so figured he's got this. I asked if he was going out on his own and he said yes. Didn't mention safety but did say if he got into any trouble to call on the radio and I would come and help. Instead of a thank you he said I have been doing this forever and never had a problem.
Now that may be true, but knowing the risks I still occasionally dive or fish solo. Not the best idea but if someone saw me going out alone and said hey we will have our radios on if you have a problem I would have asked what channel and thanked them for taking the time to talk to me.
By the way no one has ever done this for me.
I personally know a few people who have died on or in the ocean, one that was brought back to life and others who have had kayak or boat problems out there. I have almost been hit by boats and whales have almost knocked me out of my kayak.
It doesn't matter how good of a swimmer you are if you hit your head or have a medical emergency. 99 percent of the problems will not result in death. If you are the 1 percent that could have been saved because of a life jacket or some safety advice then that just sucks and that's why people take the time to say something.
I watched my mom suffer for years and never really recover from a loss at sea. Miserable to watch and may have been preventable. No way to know since they found his body a week later and there were no witnesses to the accident.
Don't knock advice from genuinely caring individuals. Doing so may only make them be quiet when saying something could have saved a life. If you don't like the advice just smile and say wish me luck out there.
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Sometimes the safety nazis (especially the pfd police) get on my nerves too. The message is often delivered poorly and without much deliberation.
But I also realize it's their choice & right to browbeat folks who don't wear pfds...just like it's the choice & right of each individual to NOT wear a pfd. This only applies to adults though...children are not always able to make that choice--and should always wear a pfd.
That said, I always wear a pfd while kayaking in the ocean. Even though I am an excellent swimmer. I wear it because shit happens--seisures, strokes, heart attacks, vertigo, leg cramps, explosive diarrhea, etc. There's a chance one might survive such an unplanned medical event if they're wearing a proper fitting pfd.
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This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem. First, you assume someone is going to die. Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.
-Allen
I don't think people assume someone will die going out.
I limit suggesting safety to those who are curious and ask or when they have kids they are putting in a dangerous situation.
Over the past couple weeks I talked to a family who were taking their kids on the ocean in a small aluminum boat. They at least had life vests on so I gave them some navigation tips because they were visiting and asked.
I told a mother that her children were playing in the surf where there was a rip tide and that it could pull them out in a blink of an eye.
I even mentioned to a tourist that was walking on the cliffs that there are such things as sneaker waves and people have died from unexpected waves and falling off the cliffs.
I wasn't being the safety police and only felt like they may have just not known the dangers.
Then I meet an older kayaker who is going out on his own and saw a life vest so figured he's got this. I asked if he was going out on his own and he said yes. Didn't mention safety but did say if he got into any trouble to call on the radio and I would come and help. Instead of a thank you he said I have been doing this forever and never had a problem.
Now that may be true, but knowing the risks I still occasionally dive or fish solo. Not the best idea but if someone saw me going out alone and said hey we will have our radios on if you have a problem I would have asked what channel and thanked them for taking the time to talk to me.
By the way no one has ever done this for me.
I personally know a few people who have died on or in the ocean, one that was brought back to life and others who have had kayak or boat problems out there. I have almost been hit by boats and whales have almost knocked me out of my kayak.
It doesn't matter how good of a swimmer you are if you hit your head or have a medical emergency. 99 percent of the problems will not result in death. If you are the 1 percent that could have been saved because of a life jacket or some safety advice then that just sucks and that's why people take the time to say something.
I watched my mom suffer for years and never really recover from a loss at sea. Miserable to watch and may have been preventable. No way to know since they found his body a week later and there were no witnesses to the accident.
Don't knock advice from genuinely caring individuals. Doing so may only make them be quiet when saying something could have saved a life. If you don't like the advice just smile and say wish me luck out there.
+1
I also know from personal experience, even if you ask for help, you can't count on anybody. I don't really care who does or doesn't wear a PFD. All I know is I wear one, and I think everybody SHOULD wear one.
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Bottom line, I wear one for the people with me, my family, and the responders that (god forbid) might be looking for me.
I am with Weimarian on this.
I am relatively in-experienced at kayaking.
I wear one for my wife. I could not bear the thought of her suffering a loss because I was not wearing one.
My experience at racing taught me to be proactive with safety.
When you are upside down and on fire, it is too late...
And as for stirring the shit up, when I see someone not wearing a pfd, I think about weeding out the shallow end of the gene pool. :smt044
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Because we are having a discussion? I thought that was the point of this lol. My brain just exploded:light
I don't get it. However you look at it, you said "but if I keep it to myself", but you didn't. Perhaps there are better ways to get the message across without calling it "death by stupidity".
-Allen
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And as for stirring the shit up, when I see someone not wearing a pfd, I think about weeding out the shallow end of the gene pool. :smt044
There are times that I have consciously chosen not to wear a PFD. What are you saying about me? It's this attitude that gets me.
If someone doesn't wear one without conscious knowledge, does that make them stupid or lacking in strong genes? No. It makes them uneducated. How about we choose to educate instead of insult?
-Allen
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Because we are having a discussion? I thought that was the point of this lol. My brain just exploded:light
I don't get it. However you look at it, you said "but if I keep it to myself", but you didn't. Perhaps there are better ways to get the message across without calling it "death by stupidity".
-Allen
Perhaps there is. I'm sorry if you took offence to it, but I DO think it is stupid. I don't think less of you or whomever we are talking about because of it though. My point was that if I see someone without a PFD, I would never say anything to them because that is a personal choice. I think it is the wrong choice, but it is theirs to make, not mine. the only reason I mentioned it here is because you started a topic about it. I wouldn't go out of my way to start shaming people though.
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Because we are having a discussion? I thought that was the point of this lol. My brain just exploded:light
I don't get it. However you look at it, you said "but if I keep it to myself", but you didn't. Perhaps there are better ways to get the message across without calling it "death by stupidity".
-Allen
Perhaps there is. I'm sorry if you took offence to it, but I DO think it is stupid. I don't think less of you or whomever we are talking about because of it though. My point was that if I see someone without a PFD, I would never say anything to them because that is a personal choice. I think it is the wrong choice, but it is theirs to make, not mine. the only reason I mentioned it here is because you started a topic about it. I wouldn't go out of my way to start shaming people though.
No offense taken MF. I understand what you are saying.
-Allen
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:smt005
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And as for stirring the shit up, when I see someone not wearing a pfd, I think about weeding out the shallow end of the gene pool. :smt044
There are times that I have consciously chosen not to wear a PFD. What are you saying about me? It's this attitude that gets me.
If someone doesn't wear one without conscious knowledge, does that make them stupid or lacking in strong genes? No. It makes them uneducated. How about we choose to educate instead of insult?
-Allen
I was thinking about the situation, not the person.
Even good people make bad decisions.
I did mean that to be taken in a lighthearted manor, sorry if it was not taken that way.
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I dont doubt anyone from our community here in NCKA their ability to scope their own capacity. We all educate ourselves into safety first. I will agree with you to some extent nobody knows your own comfort zones other than your self. But, you have to consider others usually under estimate and overly confident. I am in total agreement that educating people is far better choice. However, we've seen how many lives has been taken due to not wearing PFD not just in salt but in fresh as well. What do you think would have happen if someone preaches PFD to those who perished? I dont like telling people what to do, but when the risk are too high, I'd rather be a preacher than a by stander. If you use my Bike "I WILL TELL YOU" wear a helmet, if you hop into my car "I WILL TELL YOU" to put your seat belt. If you kayak with me (not just using my kayak) "I WILL TELL YOU" to have PFD and wear it! Imagine how it feels if someone perish (not assuming, it already happens) because you held from preaching about PFD.
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I said something to a kayaker the other day. I asked, do you have a pfd? I said the water is very cold and the lake is big enough that I couldn't swim to shore . I left it at that. Bringing it to their attention seems a reasonable thing to do.
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I dont doubt anyone from our community here in NCKA their ability to scope their own capacity. We all educate ourselves into safety first. I will agree with you to some extent nobody knows your own comfort zones other than your self. But, you have to consider others usually under estimate and overly confident
You're going to get me in trouble Darius. I have no doubt that many people here have no idea. There are just too many newbies for that not to be the case. I do not agree that others under estimate and are overly confident. Some may, but it is more human nature to be cautious of the unknown. We've all been the newbie on the water. We all know the feeling. I was scared shitless the first few times on the ocean.
I am in total agreement that educating people is far better choice. However, we've seen how many lives has been taken due to not wearing PFD not just in salt but in fresh as well. What do you think would have happen if someone preaches PFD to those who perished? I dont like telling people what to do, but when the risk are too high, I'd rather be a preacher than a by stander. If you use my Bike "I WILL TELL YOU" wear a helmet, if you hop into my car "I WILL TELL YOU" to put your seat belt. If you kayak with me (not just using my kayak) "I WILL TELL YOU" to have PFD and wear it! Imagine how it feels if someone perish (not assuming, it already happens) because you held from preaching about PFD.
Risks too high? Quantify please. Rockfish posted the following stats to fb.
based on statistics from the ACA, in 2013 there were roughly 13 million kayakers enjoying the sport, of which 54 died while kayaking
That's roughly 1:240,000 people dying. Normalize to kayaker days and the number of deaths per trip is even less. Look at the 1 year mortality odds of other "common" occurances ... http://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/mortality-risk
Fall on and from stairs and steps ... 1:139,544 ... Perhaps we should all don full body armor when we take the stairs?
Drowning and submersion while in or falling into swimming pool ... 1:454,860 ... perhaps everyone needs to wear a PFD to the pool?
BTW Darius, please don't ever take the stairs when I'm around.
-Allen
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As far as I can tell, rock climbing has similar (close enough to argue) death rates to kayaking. Yet Alex Honnold's recent free solo of El Capitan was more idolized than condemned. Why isn't there a similar "campaign" in the rock climbing world to require ropes and protection?
-Allen
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Stupid kills people, lots of people. But its job security for a lot of us.
As far as the education thing, how much education does one need? I think its pretty common sense that people sink. AND its called a Personal FLOTATION Device. If people can't put two and two together then natural selection might just catch up to them.
It is the individual's responsibility to take the necessary precautions to keep themselves safe, but most do not have that sentiment. They count on others. I have no issue with people making their own choices, as long as they take responsibility for their actions if/when something unexpected happens.
There are risks in everything we do, everyday. But there are certain steps and actions you can take to mitigate many of those risks. Wearing a PFD when on the water is one of them.
These recent deaths could have all been prevented. Simple as that.
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I run with scissors . Keeps me on the edge .
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You're going to get me in trouble Darius.
No Sir I didn't mean that you are questioning or doubting anybody here lol. It my opinion that most of us prioritize safety first.
Risks too high? Quantify please.
I wasn't referring to the statistic, I meant risking life is to high to be taken for granted or get overly confident. Some case I call it stubbornness ;)
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You're going to get me in trouble Darius.
No Sir I didn't mean that you are questioning or doubting anybody here lol. It my opinion that most of us prioritize safety first.
I'll make the claim that 50% of the PFD's worn at an event aren't being worn correctly. I'll make the claim that 25% of the participants at an event are not suitably dressed for immersion. I have no real facts to back up those claims, but I am positive the numbers are significantly higher than zero.
Risks too high? Quantify please.
I wasn't referring to the statistic, I meant risking life is to high to be taken for granted or get overly confident. Some case I call it stubbornness ;)
Risk is not an absolute thing. At some point, it falls below having to worry about. For instance, you have a higher chance of dying while jogging than while kayaking. I think everyone should wear helmets while jogging. :smt002
-Allen
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you have a higher chance of dying while jogging than while kayaking. I think everyone should wear helmets while jogging. :smt002
-Allen
But then you are also increasing your chance of dying while kayaking if you are not wearing PFD :smt002 :smt001
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As far as I can tell, rock climbing has similar (close enough to argue) death rates to kayaking. Yet Alex Honnold's recent free solo of El Capitan was more idolized than condemned. Why isn't there a similar "campaign" in the rock climbing world to require ropes and protection?
-Allen
Meh.....i think its badass. But i also hold the pfd police in the same regard as i do jehova's witnesses, pushy liberasts and hippies.
Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk
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you have a higher chance of dying while jogging than while kayaking. I think everyone should wear helmets while jogging. :smt002
-Allen
But then you are also increasing your chance of dying while kayaking if you are not wearing PFD :smt002 :smt001
Not necessarily. That's the thing about odds like this, they don't apply uniformly across all situations.
-Allen
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Allen with an exercise in sophistry. Amusing.
you have a higher chance of dying while jogging than while kayaking. I think everyone should wear helmets while jogging. :smt002
-Allen
But then you are also increasing your chance of dying while kayaking if you are not wearing PFD :smt002 :smt001
Not necessarily. That's the thing about odds like this, they don't apply uniformly across all situations.
-Allen
Ceteris paribus it is a true statement, so long as the kayak is in a sufficient amount of water that you can drown in it.
That is a different question than the question about PFD police and uninvited safety lectures, but let's not hide the ball, ok?
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What's Face Book?
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Allen with an exercise in sophistry. Amusing.
you have a higher chance of dying while jogging than while kayaking. I think everyone should wear helmets while jogging. :smt002
-Allen
But then you are also increasing your chance of dying while kayaking if you are not wearing PFD :smt002 :smt001
Not necessarily. That's the thing about odds like this, they don't apply uniformly across all situations.
-Allen
Ceteris paribus it is a true statement, so long as the kayak is in a sufficient amount of water that you can drown in it.
That is a different question than the question about PFD police and uninvited safety lectures, but let's not hide the ball, ok?
Maybe if they understood the statistics of it, the PFD Police wouldn't uniformly address the various situations. I've paddled in situations in which not wearing a PFD probably has less of a chance of dying than other situations in which I was wearing a PFD. Chew on that for a bit!
-Allen
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Maybe if they understood the statistics
I can argue both sides but am usually in the "just wear it 'cause it's good impact protection and it has pockets" camp. But you brought up statistics, pole-pole. :smt003
Mark Twain penned: "Figures often beguile me," he wrote, "particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"
But, bottom line , do what you think is the proper thing for the situation and conditions, but always remember, you have only: 1*
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I can argue both sides
I can argue both sides too. And I can support aspects of both. The more I talk about this, the more I realize I just don't like the safety cop approach I see becoming more of the norm these days. The world is not black and white, it is shades of grey. And everyone's grey is not the same. Think about that for a bit!
-Allen
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99.9% of the time I wear a seat belt. If I'm moving from one driveway to another, which means I have to back out onto the street and pull into the other, I don't. But I do feel weird for not wearing it.
I feel naked w/o my PFD when on my kayak. 99.9% of he time I wear it.
Then there's always the embarrassment your family will face if you drowned because you weren't wearing it.
Like seat belts; no one ever needs a PFD....until they do.
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What's Face Book?
I am glad I don't know.
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The world is not black and white, it is shades of grey. And everyone's grey is not the same.
THIS!
This is something that until recently I thought I understood, now in midlife its really messing with me. :(
But back on topic:
I always wear a seat belt when driving, PFD when on a boat and wetsuit when in cold water. When I see someone in the bay with no wetsuit I want to try and tell them what I think they should do but typically figure it's not really my job to try and educate them.
On the other hand often in the past I fished the ocean alone and relied on fear to let me know my limit. These days with a kid I go out alone alot less and only in "safer conditions" also when things freak me out I head in.
I think when people have less to lose they are willing to take more risks and the adrenalin helps them feel more alive (enjoy their life) and perhaps adjust their actions to reduce risk. When they have more to lose they are often more careful.
The telling people to wear their PDF thing is similar to telling them there are sharks in the ocean, they probably already know and you are likely to make them uncomfortable by reminding them (especially if you say it like you care). How you say it really will effect how they will respond.
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It's a responsibility to wear a PFD when applicable with your intended recreational activity. For the following reasons:
1. Out of a concern and respect for your fellow paddler/rescuer. Drowning people are scary as fuck to rescue especially if they aren't wearing a PFD and panicked.
2. You are probably not as smart as you think you are. Granted, there are some truly knowledgeable watermen on these boards who can make highly reliable risk assessments, but you are probably not that guy. I know I'm not. If you complain to kokatat that the denim and cotton tee that you wear under your dry suit is getting damp, then you are most definitely not tha guy. But hey, that's ok, just wear your pfd and you just might survive your own stupidity (I'm including myself in this too)The effects of unanticipated cold water immersion are too abstract for people who have not experienced it.
3. This is NCKA. Water is cold here.
4. You are most likely a role model...... Whether you like it or not.
If you are a leader in the kayak fishing community I believe that you have further obligations to your fellow kayak enthusiasts.
5. You are a driver of kayaking and fishing culture. Some individuals refuse to wear PFD's for asinine reasons, namely that it is somehow emasculating/non-macho/only for neophytes. As a driver of culture you can change these misconceptions.
Do I want a PFD law? F&$k no! As polepole said thee is a grey area, and I suspect a PFD law would draw an arbitrary line. So, I am making the case that social pressure isn't such a bad way to go about it.
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I was a rescue swimmer in the Coast Guard. Full disclosure: I was a member of a team of seven based in San Francisco who were the prototype for what are now Rescue Swimmers.
Even with a great deal of water experience and a fitness regime that makes me want to take a nap just remembering it, and although there was always a helicopter hovering above us or a rescue boat within a few yards, we wore CO2-inflatable life vests at all times and never questioned the need for them, then - and I don't question the need for them now. The unexpected happens.
I'm not sure I get the point of this conversation, Allen. I'd suggest that if it feels wrong for someone to say, "You must always wear a PFD" it's no more wrong than someone saying, "Wear a PFD when you feel like it". Advice is advice, no matter what the message may be.
I'm interested in a description of a situation in which you feel safer without wearing a PFD than you would if wearing one.
I have no data to suggest the odds of drowning would change if all forms of kayaking had been included, but the statistics you quoted about kayak deaths look similar to a report based on a selected set of circumstances that represent a teeny-tiny subset of all kayaking, yet it appears that small number of deaths was used to calculate a person's odds based on all kayakers.
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I think that I agree with Allen, in that there has been a bit much finger pointing and preaching of PFD's recently, like at GS when people were calling out to some kayakers on the radio without PFD's on, only to find out that they were seasoned divers who were in no danger at all. I totally agree that you shouldn't preach to someone that knows what they are doing, knows their limits, and is properly outfitted for conditions, and has weighed the risks.
But I also have to agree that it's important to preach safety on the site, because you never know whom we might be inspiring to join this sport by way of all of our awesome reports, hookups, and tournaments.
When new guys jump on the site and say "I found a kayak at a garage sale, picked up a cheap pole and hit the water" only to see in their pics they are wearing jeans, t-shirt, no pfd, no vhf, no pump, and dont even have a single piece of safety gear on them.
How sad would it be if you found out someone emulated us and then died doing so? Luckily this hasn't happened at any of our hookups or whatever. But there are plenty of reports of people helping others on the water that were woefully under equipped for the conditions, or their own abilities. And there are too many reports of people drowning and not having a PFD on them as well.
So I might just tell someone what I think is safe or not safe. Still it's their choice. I'm not the police. But I'd still like to believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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It is hard to come back from dead and try again :drool
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Adam, you seem to want to keep making this about me, which is fine. I can see why, and I will respond.
But really, I'd like more focus on the insensitive safety cops ...
It's a responsibility to wear a PFD when applicable with your intended recreational activity. For the following reasons:
1. Out of a concern and respect for your fellow paddler/rescuer. Drowning people are scary as fuck to rescue especially if they aren't wearing a PFD and panicked.
My fellow paddlers are not at the top of my list. Sorry for how that sounds. I do care about them. But I focus more on making sure I can take care of myself.
2. You are probably not as smart as you think you are. Granted, there are some truly knowledgeable watermen on these boards who can make highly reliable risk assessments, but you are probably not that guy. I know I'm not. If you complain to kokatat that the denim and cotton tee that you wear under your dry suit is getting damp, then you are most definitely not tha guy. But hey, that's ok, just wear your pfd and you just might survive your own stupidity (I'm including myself in this too)The effects of unanticipated cold water immersion are too abstract for people who have not experienced it.
I'm smart enough to know that if I'm in some inland waterway with 85+ degree calm water, 85+ degree air temp, no wind in the forecast, and I stay within 100 yards of shore, that the risk of me drowning without a PFD on is LESS THAN if I were a mile offshore of the Sonoma Coast in 25 knot winds.
3. This is NCKA. Water is cold here.
Not everywhere.
4. You are most likely a role model...... Whether you like it or not.
If you are a leader in the kayak fishing community I believe that you have further obligations to your fellow kayak enthusiasts.
There are different ways to being a role model. I'd like to make sure people are more educated and understand the tradeoffs vs. just blindly following rules that they may or may not completely comprehend. That isn't to say there isn't a place for blindly following the rules. It doesn't have to be either/or. There is a time and place for different things.
5. You are a driver of kayaking and fishing culture. Some individuals refuse to wear PFD's for asinine reasons, namely that it is somehow emasculating/non-macho/only for neophytes. As a driver of culture you can change these misconceptions.
I'd love to change the culture to being less abrasive and combative when it comes to safety.
Do I want a PFD law? F&$k no! As polepole said thee is a grey area, and I suspect a PFD law would draw an arbitrary line. So, I am making the case that social pressure isn't such a bad way to go about it.
Social pressure doesn't have to be being mean to people.
-Allen
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I'm not sure I get the point of this conversation, Allen. I'd suggest that if it feels wrong for someone to say, "You must always wear a PFD" it's no more wrong than someone saying, "Wear a PFD when you feel like it". Advice is advice, no matter what the message may be.
It's all in the delivery of said "advice" ...
I'm interested in a description of a situation in which you feel safer without wearing a PFD than you would if wearing one.
I never said it was safer. What I'm trying to say is that there are situations that fall below the acceptable risk level that I have set for myself.
I have no data to suggest the odds of drowning would change if all forms of kayaking had been included, but the statistics you quoted about kayak deaths look similar to a report based on a selected set of circumstances that represent a teeny-tiny subset of all kayaking, yet it appears that small number of deaths was used to calculate a person's odds based on all kayakers.
The kayak stats came via rockfish from ACA I believe. I do not believe they are a teeny-tiny subset. Do you have "better" stats?
-Allen
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I'm not making it about you, and I wonder where you get that idea.
Cool, you have convinced me. I will not say another word about PFDs on your forum nor will I ever post a self rescue hook up on NCKA again.
If you don't like safety culture, then you can change it. (And yes this post is directed at you.)
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What is your point polepole?
Is it the message itself that bothers you? The tone?
What was the triggering event for this post that you knew would be divisive and why are you taking a contrarian stance without making it crystal clear exactly what it is you are advocating? Because it seems like you are talking about two distinct things and using the arguments interchangeably in your posts, and the arguments for message vs tone are not interchangeable, hence my sophistry comment.
What's up?
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I'm not making it about you, and I wonder where you get that idea.
Cool, you have convinced me. I will not say another word about PFDs on your forum nor will I ever post a self rescue hook up on NCKA again.
Adam, you're completely missing the point. The problem I have is not the message being sent, it is HOW it often times gets sent. I can't think of a time that you are guilty of this. And I support your means of getting the message across.
-Allen
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What is your point polepole?
Is it the message itself that bothers you? The tone?
What was the triggering event for this post that you knew would be divisive and why are you taking a contrarian stance without making it crystal clear exactly what it is you are advocating? Because it seems like you are talking about two distinct things and using the arguments interchangeably in your posts, and the arguments for message vs tone are not interchangeable, hence my sophistry comment.
What's up?
Sorry if I'm having a hard time getting my point across. If Doug can't tease it out, I must be an idiot. :smt006
No singular trigger event. It's been building over time.
What contrarian stance am I taking? That you don't have to wear your PFD 100% of the time? I can see how some might take offense to that in itself.
What am I advocating? That people in general better understand the risks, and become capable to make decisions on their own. And that more experienced kayaks have the patience to teach with respect. That the world is not black and white.
What 2 distinct things do you see me discussing and what arguments being used interchangeably?
-Allen
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So getting back to the preaching ...A few years ago a few members of JW's were going through the hood on a regular basis . After several agitated VK responses , they were still persistent in their outreach .
One afternoon , the doorbell rang and it was them . I stopped the man and told him that I appreciate his concern for my spiritual well-being but did not believe in organized religions and am happy with my own personal journey .
They to my knowledge have not returned nor are there pamphlets left on our door step , even after seeing the crew canvassing the neighborhood .
Honey instead of vinegar . The delivery .
Maybe the thread Safety First should be rewritten and an asterisk added with a disclaimer
* NCKA neither encourages nor discourages the use of PFD since it's a personal choice . Kayaking can be dangerous and could cause serious bodily harm up to and including death .
I don't have the intellectual capacity and my mental health issues w/ my PTSD make it hard to maintain focus in/for a debate. Hell most of my posts are ignored as anyway lol .
Crap IDK where this is even going ..Fwiw just my .02
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I'm not making it about you, and I wonder where you get that idea.
Cool, you have convinced me. I will not say another word about PFDs on your forum nor will I ever post a self rescue hook up on NCKA again.
Adam, you're completely missing the point. The problem I have is not the message being sent, it is HOW it often times gets sent. I can't think of a time that you are guilty of this. And I support your means of getting the message across.
-Allen
Oh don't get me wrong, I'll still ty to promote safety through self rescue practices and always wearing my pfd. I just will no longer do it on your website.
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So getting back to the preaching ...A few years ago a few members of JW's were going through the hood on a regular basis . After several agitated VK responses , they were still persistent in their outreach .
One afternoon , the doorbell rang and it was them . I stopped the man and told him that I appreciate his concern for my spiritual well-being but did not believe in organized religions and am happy with my own personal journey .
They to my knowledge have not returned nor are there pamphlets left on our door step , even after seeing the crew canvassing the neighborhood .
Honey instead of vinegar . The delivery .
Maybe the thread Safety First should be rewritten and an asterisk added with a disclaimer
* NCKA neither encourages nor discourages the use of PFD since it's a personal choice . Kayaking can be dangerous and could cause serious bodily harm up to and including death .
I don't have the intellectual capacity and my mental health issues w/ my PTSD make it hard to maintain focus in/for a debate. Hell most of my posts are ignored as anyway lol .
Crap IDK where this is even going ..Fwiw just my .02
Did you say something Vic? :smt004
BTW, NCKA encourages the use of PFD's. Confused yet?
-Allen
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'll still ty to promote safety through self rescue practices and always wearing my pfd. I just will no longer do it on your website.
Seems a bit passive aggressive Adam. Not sure why you're all bent out of shape.
-Allen
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'll still ty to promote safety through self rescue practices and always wearing my pfd. I just will no longer do it on your website.
Seems a bit passive aggressive Adam. Not sure why you're all bent out of shape.
-Allen
Not at all, this is me responding directly and honestly to your request. You don't want safety police on your website, so I won't be safety police on your website.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'll still ty to promote safety through self rescue practices and always wearing my pfd. I just will no longer do it on your website.
Seems a bit passive aggressive Adam. Not sure why you're all bent out of shape.
-Allen
Not at all, this is me responding directly and honestly to your request. You don't want safety police on your website, so I won't be safety police on your website.
That is not at all what I said. In my original post, I said, "I think it's better to educate people, but still leave the decision up to them. Education does not mean bullying, or goading, or guilting." Safety police does encompass all educators. Perhaps I should chose a better term, but I associate safety police with the negative connotations expressed in my original post.
-Allen
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No confusion , of course NCKA does :smt003. Just being a smart-ass
I know I won't hold another self rescue chill , just for the simple fact people talk game , but don't bring it or even a message stating not coming at least . Despite my lack of organizational skills with the event .
But that is my issue
As far as risk , Ill throw this out " I make a personal choice to commit to not advising, commenting or questioning anyone not wearing a PFD , but also will not offer assistance to those not wearing a PFD with the only exception being a minor . Personal choice above responsibility at all times . LOL
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No confusion , of course NCKA does :smt003. Just being a smart-ass
I know I won't hold another self rescue chill , just for the simple fact people talk game , but don't bring it or even a message stating not coming at least . Despite my lack of organizational skills with the event .
But that is my issue
As far as risk , Ill throw this out " I make a personal choice to commit to not advising, commenting or questioning anyone not wearing a PFD , but also will not offer assistance to those not wearing a PFD with the only exception being a minor . Personal choice above responsibility at all times . LOL
Aww you made me feel bad VK. I'm sorry I had to miss that, I did/do actually want to do that. At least I messaged, we should hook up and fish some time though. Through some of our other conversations I think we live really close to each other.
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No confusion , of course NCKA does :smt003. Just being a smart-ass
I know I won't hold another self rescue chill , just for the simple fact people talk game , but don't bring it or even a message stating not coming at least . Despite my lack of organizational skills with the event .
But that is my issue
As far as risk , Ill throw this out " I make a personal choice to commit to not advising, commenting or questioning anyone not wearing a PFD , but also will not offer assistance to those not wearing a PFD with the only exception being a minor . Personal choice above responsibility at all times . LOL
Aww you made me feel bad VK. I'm sorry I had to miss that, I did/do actually want to do that. At least I messaged, we should hook up and fish some time though. Through some of our other conversations I think we live really close to each other.
Dude your one of the 2 that got back to me about a family commitment ..remember ? lol
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No confusion , of course NCKA does :smt003. Just being a smart-ass
I know I won't hold another self rescue chill , just for the simple fact people talk game , but don't bring it or even a message stating not coming at least . Despite my lack of organizational skills with the event .
But that is my issue
As far as risk , Ill throw this out " I make a personal choice to commit to not advising, commenting or questioning anyone not wearing a PFD , but also will not offer assistance to those not wearing a PFD with the only exception being a minor . Personal choice above responsibility at all times . LOL
Aww you made me feel bad VK. I'm sorry I had to miss that, I did/do actually want to do that. At least I messaged, we should hook up and fish some time though. Through some of our other conversations I think we live really close to each other.
Dude your one of the 2 that got back to me about a family commitment ..remember ? lol
That's a shame. I remember, did everyone bail on you?
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No confusion , of course NCKA does :smt003. Just being a smart-ass
I know I won't hold another self rescue chill , just for the simple fact people talk game , but don't bring it or even a message stating not coming at least . Despite my lack of organizational skills with the event .
But that is my issue
As far as risk , Ill throw this out " I make a personal choice to commit to not advising, commenting or questioning anyone not wearing a PFD , but also will not offer assistance to those not wearing a PFD with the only exception being a minor . Personal choice above responsibility at all times . LOL
Aww you made me feel bad VK. I'm sorry I had to miss that, I did/do actually want to do that. At least I messaged, we should hook up and fish some time though. Through some of our other conversations I think we live really close to each other.
Dude your one of the 2 that got back to me about a family commitment ..remember ? lol
That's a shame. I remember, did everyone bail on you?
not to threadjack Scottymeboy showed we had a good time
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It wouldn't surprise me if it isn't a moot point within the next couple years. Kayaking is booming right now and more inexperienced yakkers are on the water (including myself). Coupled with the deaths of kayakers without PFD's every month or two makes a good case for legislation that requires PFD's on kayaks. Yeah, that would suck.
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I think the State of NY has May 1 - Nov 1 mandatory...Trying to remember , have to look it up
Reverse that Nov 1-May 1 due to the "Gasp" effect in cold water
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I think the State of NY has May 1 - Nov 1 mandatory...Trying to remember , have to look it up
Reverse that Nov 1-May 1 due to the "Gasp" effect in cold water
That's what took one of our restaurant patrons in May of last year. His friends watched from shore.
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I had time to try out for the first time last weekend self rescue. The fishing was slow so being it was my fourth trip on the kayak and i hadn't tried yet i decided to. And yes with a PFD on i went 5 for 5 on my kayak and then i tried my cousins sit in and went 1 for 1 in it. Being new to tge game i believe the PDF helped me get back in with ease and i am a big boy at 268 lb. I flipped myself and was back up in seat in probably 30 seconds i surprised myself. This was in a lake so next i want try in a river sometime im sure it will be more difficult but with the PFD im sure i should be able to manage. I wear mine because i wouldnt want my wife to be mad if something happened. She asked me to wear just in case. And all it would take is some lake lice watching little Suzie stand up on water ski's for the first time and not pay attention to whats in front of him. Or someone who had to many to be in the water driving a boat. I want that extra chance if i lost or broke a limb from someone's negligence or my own for that matter. There is always the what if situations and i myself will try to be better prepared just in case. And last weekened i felt good and like a,role model when i went by a mother and her 5ish year old son on a floating device she said look even that big guy with tattoos wears his. She said he wont wear it because he thinks he will be sissy. I looked at the boy and said do i in any way resemble a sissy? The kid under breath said umm no i said good now i hope you will reconsider as i paddled away.
Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'll still ty to promote safety through self rescue practices and always wearing my pfd. I just will no longer do it on your website.
Seems a bit passive aggressive Adam. Not sure why you're all bent out of shape.
-Allen
Not at all, this is me responding directly and honestly to your request. You don't want safety police on your website, so I won't be safety police on your website.
That is not at all what I said. In my original post, I said, "I think it's better to educate people, but still leave the decision up to them. Education does not mean bullying, or goading, or guilting." Safety police does encompass all educators. Perhaps I should chose a better term, but I associate safety police with the negative connotations expressed in my original post.
-Allen
Archie, Baby. I am one of the worst PFD Police. Esp if the yak has a fishing rod on it!
You can't go anywhere you have to stay here. And be as emphatic as you like re: PFD's. Polepole is being provocative again....
I've moderated my on the water reminders, I used to talk to everyone I saw out there without a PFD on, clipped and zipped. Now not so much unless they are anglers. WE each and all are role models.
I ALWAYS wear a PFD even when it's hot.
No one has kayak fished with Polepole more than I, and I can only think on one or two tropical occasions wherein he took off the PFD for comort. But, both thoe situations I was right there with him, and one or both we had a mothership support coose by. Aand as I said, it was tropical.
I still wore mine.
Bushy
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If it's not pfd's, people will glom onto something else, like the net requirement...next thing you'll hear is, "hey you can't use that photo for promotional purposes because there's no net in the picture! You were poaching!" Hahaha
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You just never know. I tell my son it is like not using your safety on a rifle. You never intend for an accident to happen, so you use common sense and keep the barrel pointed safely, etc. Just like that trigger, you can accidently roll it. It is going to catch you off guard, when you are not ready. Prob be ok, but the chances of unintended consequences goes way up. Why risk it?
Besides a pfd gives you lots of extra pockets for stuff! Like the license everyone is freaking out about forgetting.
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My personal opinion.....ban anyone who refuses to wear a off while tournament fishing,what they choose to do on their own outings shall be entirely up to them,it's hard to try to explain the theory to some adults.
Sent from my SM-G920T1 using Tapatalk
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it's hard to try to explain the theory to some adults.
Yes, it is, but in my case, in discussing the "other side". Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD? They are too busy chastising me for not wearing one.
-Allen
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it's hard to try to explain the theory to some adults.
Yes, it is, but in my case, in discussing the "other side". Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD? They are too busy chastising me for not wearing one.
-Allen
And that's your decision to not wear 1 polepole,your a grown man and are well aware of what could happen
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it's hard to try to explain the theory to some adults.
Yes, it is, but in my case, in discussing the "other side". Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD? They are too busy chastising me for not wearing one.
-Allen
And that's your decision to not wear 1 polepole,your a grown man and are well aware of what could happen
Yup. I was well aware, and decided the risk was minimal. But somehow, without even asking about or knowing the situations, many people are "willing" to weigh in.
-Allen
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it's hard to try to explain the theory to some adults.
Yes, it is, but in my case, in discussing the "other side". Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD? They are too busy chastising me for not wearing one.
-Allen
And that's your decision to not wear 1 polepole,your a grown man and are well aware of what could happen
Yup. I was well aware, and decided the risk was minimal. But somehow, without even asking about or knowing the situations, many people are "willing" to weigh in.
-Allen
I have only fished the delta and a few lakes and I always wear a pfd,I wouldn't even step foot in my kayak without the proper necessities suit,2 way radio-waterproof and I would never go alone....i have been swimming with someone who claimed they was a excellent swimmer and drowned, the feeling wasn't good and to explain to the dudes family who had no clue where he went was even more difficult,it's very hard mentally.
Sent from my SM-G920T1 using Tapatalk
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it's hard to try to explain the theory to some adults.
Yes, it is, but in my case, in discussing the "other side". Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD? They are too busy chastising me for not wearing one.
-Allen
And that's your decision to not wear 1 polepole,your a grown man and are well aware of what could happen
Yup. I was well aware, and decided the risk was minimal. But somehow, without even asking about or knowing the situations, many people are "willing" to weigh in.
-Allen
I have only fished the delta and a few lakes and I always wear a pfd,I wouldn't even step foot in my kayak without the proper necessities suit,2 way radio-waterproof and I would never go alone....i have been swimming with someone who claimed they was a excellent swimmer and drowned, the feeling wasn't good and to explain to the dudes family who had no clue where he went was even more difficult,it's very hard mentally.
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Well, I'm kayaking, not swimming. I understand the relationship, but what does that have to do with my case?
I've been kayak fishing for ~15 years, with 100's of days on the water. Other that surf practice, I've only dumped once. And in that case, I righted the kayak and got back in it so fast that Bushy thought I levitated. Seriously, I had 2 rods in the rear rod holders and they didn't even have time to slide out.
I don't push it, I'm rarely on the water in any sort of weather. I plan it that way and choose to fish another day if the weather is iffy. I'm known as the safe one in my regular circle of adventurers.
Yet somehow, again, people are willing to weigh in without even knowing the details. I'd be happy to discuss and debate, but it seems too many people's minds are made up. I'm fine with that, err to the side of caution and what not. However, I just ask that you all project your thoughts with respect to whomever you are talking to. Maybe take the time to know the situation, and debate it based on the merits of said situation, vs just blinding chanting the mantra.
-Allen
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I didn't question your judgment as to those times you chose not to wear a pfd, Allen. You are skilled and knowedgeable, you deemed it appropriate, done.
I presumed you didn't care to divulge that circumstance because you hadn't included it and I was not to going to press the issue. I would have asked in person when I got the chance.
So, the box lid is cracked - fill us in.
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Uh, guys.....I gave the details two days ago?
Archie, Baby. I am one of the worst PFD Police. Esp if the yak has a fishing rod on it!
You can't go anywhere you have to stay here. And be as emphatic as you like re: PFD's. Polepole is being provocative again....
I've moderated my on the water reminders, I used to talk to everyone I saw out there without a PFD on, clipped and zipped. Now not so much unless they are anglers. WE each and all are role models.
I ALWAYS wear a PFD even when it's hot.
No one has kayak fished with Polepole more than I, and I can only think on one or two tropical occasions wherein he took off the PFD for comort. But, both thoe situations I was right there with him, and one or both we had a mothership support coose by. Aand as I said, it was tropical.
I still wore mine.
Bushy
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I just hope for Kalins' sake you make the right decision as to where and when you chose to wear your PFD . As Effed up as I am , I like you Allen , just hate to see some bad juju happen .
OK , time to move on ... :smt006 :smt001
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Bouché wrote:
Uh, guys.....I gave the details two days ago?
Yes, but I thought we could get if direct from Polepole - his frame of mind and rationale.
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I just went into the drink, again, Saturday and thank goodness for a PFD. No energy lost as I tipped my kayak back over and swam to where my feet hit the bottom and reloaded. Thank goodness for the dip, it was 102 outside air temperature and the dunking felt soooooooooooooooo good.
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I'm going to wear one at the swim up bar today!
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I'm going to wear one at the swim up bar today!
You should also wear a helmet.
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I'm going to wear one at the swim up bar today!
You should also wear a helmet.
Lmao and a mouth piece.
What time can I start harvesting bearded and or razored clams in Cabo?
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I'm going to wear one at the swim up bar today!
You should also wear a helmet.
Lmao and a mouth piece.
What time can I start harvesting bearded and or razored clams in Cabo?
Check the latest health advisories and stay safe bro
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I'm going to wear one at the swim up bar today!
You should also wear a helmet.
Lmao and a mouth piece.
What time can I start harvesting bearded and or razored clams in Cabo?
As soon as you are sober enough to assure good judgement! :smt003 That may preclude it altogether, eh?
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I'm going to wear one at the swim up bar today!
You should also wear a helmet.
Lmao and a mouth piece.
What time can I start harvesting bearded and or razored clams in Cabo?
As soon as you are sober enough to assure good judgement! :smt003 That may preclude it altogether, eh?
Rule no. 1
No harvesting of Gapers
Rule no. 2
No harvesting of horsenecks
Rule no. 3
Discard all clams exceeding the 3 finger gauge. Refer to rule no. 1
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Bouché wrote:
Uh, guys.....I gave the details two days ago?
Yes, but I thought we could get if direct from Polepole - his frame of mind and rationale.
The times that come to mind involved very uncomfortable, warmer than normal air temperatures. The thought process went like this. Water conditions? Glassy. Water temps? 80+ degrees. Air temps? 100+ degrees. Shore or safety boat? Within comfortable swimming distance. And oh, I had already actively been swimming without a PFD. That was actually the "enlightening moment", when I realized I had already made that choice, so why continue to suffer topside on the kayak ...
I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.
-Allen
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I was glad I was wearing mine last week when trying to net a HOT salmon from a wet swim step in decent sized swell...
When I go diving I usually don't wear one when paddling out...
:smt006
Sincerely,
Jim
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Bouché wrote:
Uh, guys.....I gave the details two days ago?
Yes, but I thought we could get if direct from Polepole - his frame of mind and rationale.
The times that come to mind involved very uncomfortable, warmer than normal air temperatures. The thought process went like this. Water conditions? Glassy. Water temps? 80+ degrees. Air temps? 100+ degrees. Shore or safety boat? Within comfortable swimming distance. And oh, I had already actively been swimming without a PFD. That was actually the "enlightening moment", when I realized I had already made that choice, so why continue to suffer topside on the kayak ...
I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.
-Allen
I think if we are only going to do the safest thing we would stay off the water all together. Once we decide to go we make calculations on how much risk is too much risk. Thoses calculations are different for everyone. Should it be considered an absolute rule to wear a pfd? I took my son out at Albion and he now has an absolute rule. Never kayak on the ocean. Is he wrong? Is the pfd rule right? There are gray areas, different conditions, different abilities. I always wear a pfd because I'm not a strong swimmer. I refuse to stay off the ocean because some clueless newbie might follow me and die. I am not responsible for others to the point of restricting what is safe enough for me to prevent possible harm to others.
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I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.
-Allen
The odds are on your side. If you only go out on good water and weather days that sure reduces the risk but it doesn't remove it. That's your decision so not really sure why you are feeling so strong about this topic. In a situation like you mentioned you can control much of the situation but there are so many situations that one can not predict. Like I mentioned earlier and was mentioned on another post some boaters don't like kayakers and some just don't pay attention enough to not hit a kayaker.
Many divers spend hours in the water and don't feel like its necessary to have a life vest. Because of the rolling in fog, close calls by boaters and near misses with whales I now bring my life vest on all trips. I don't wear it all day because I am in the water much of the time but it's easily accessible in case it's needed for me or another diver.
I am still not going to complain or make comments like its telling about others caring about me, my family or rescuers that may have to help or recover my body.
You either posted the questions here to have a healthy discussion or you didn't. At this point I am not really sure why this was posted.
It truly sucks recovering dead bodies and informing family members of a lost one. We do have numerous first responders on this site and don't see how being concerned for them or a deceased persons family is a bad thing. It takes its toll on people and seeing something that was preventable just sucks.
As much time as I spend on or in the water I am convinced my odds of dying out there are going up with my age. I tell my family I try to take safety seriously but accidents, medical emergencies and unpredictable things can happen. But I also say they can happen on land so let me enjoy the ocean while I still can.
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Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD?
Not at all. I find it strange that you thought it was important to the conversation but didn't volunteer the information forthwith. You are knowledgeable on the matters of things kayak angling, and if you thought it was important you should have included it in post one. If you didn't think it was important enough to the discussion to include it, I don't think it is important to ask it. I'm not going to depose you to try to figure out what it is you are trying to say.
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I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.
-Allen
The odds are on your side. If you only go out on good water and weather days that sure reduces the risk but it doesn't remove it. That's your decision so not really sure why you are feeling so strong about this topic.
I'm trying to figure out why I feel strongly about this as well. But it mostly keeps coming back to the close minded and disrespectful responses that are becoming all too common place.
In a situation like you mentioned you can control much of the situation but there are so many situations that one can not predict. Like I mentioned earlier and was mentioned on another post some boaters don't like kayakers and some just don't pay attention enough to not hit a kayaker.
But the kayaker has control over the part where they should always be aware of their surrounding and approaching boats. Unless a boat is specifically targeting me, I'm pretty sure I know where they are around me at all times and will get myself out of the way if needed.
Many divers spend hours in the water and don't feel like its necessary to have a life vest. Because of the rolling in fog, close calls by boaters and near misses with whales I now bring my life vest on all trips. I don't wear it all day because I am in the water much of the time but it's easily accessible in case it's needed for me or another diver.
I am still not going to complain or make comments like its telling about others caring about me, my family or rescuers that may have to help or recover my body.
You either posted the questions here to have a healthy discussion or you didn't. At this point I am not really sure why this was posted.
The telling part for me, is that from what I see here, many aren't willing to have a healthy discussion.
It truly sucks recovering dead bodies and informing family members of a lost one. We do have numerous first responders on this site and don't see how being concerned for them or a deceased persons family is a bad thing. It takes its toll on people and seeing something that was preventable just sucks.
As much time as I spend on or in the water I am convinced my odds of dying out there are going up with my age. I tell my family I try to take safety seriously but accidents, medical emergencies and unpredictable things can happen. But I also say they can happen on land so let me enjoy the ocean while I still can.
No arguments from me here. However, my first priority is to not place myself in a situation that requires responders. Presuming that responders will get involved and taking the discussion from there just seems ass backwards to me. While good to keep in mind, it shouldn't drive the discussion IMO. Honestly, it is not even something I expected to come up in the course of this discussion, so it kind of catches me off guard. I'll have to think about this some more ...
-Allen
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Does anyone else find it strange that very few have asked about the situations that I have chosen not to wear a PFD?
Not at all. I find it strange that you thought it was important to the conversation but didn't volunteer the information forthwith. You are knowledgeable on the matters of things kayak angling, and if you thought it was important you should have included it in post one. If you didn't think it was important enough to the discussion to include it, I don't think it is important to ask it. I'm not going to depose you to try to figure out what it is you are trying to say.
Having a discussion does not mean I have to start by typing a book.
And I am making a point here, and framed my introduction along those lines. It didn't take 1 page of responses before "stupidity" was used in the discussion. And again, without full knowledge of the circumstances. This is the part that bugs me the most, the way the safety cops come out, preach and pass judgement, without full knowledge of specific situations.
So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
-Allen
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No arguments from me here. However, my first priority is to not place myself in a situation that requires responders. Presuming that responders will get involved and taking the discussion from there just seems ass backwards to me. While good to keep in mind, it shouldn't drive the discussion IMO. Honestly, it is not even something I expected to come up in the course of this discussion, so it kind of catches me off guard. I'll have to think about this some more ...
Well after all was said I guess it's good to at least keep the discussion going. Not trying to change ones mind, but putting out ones personal experiences sure makes things real. Even you found something that was talked about that wasn't on your radar and others may also see new points. I have no clue if that will actually change your mind nor do I think that's the point you should focus on.
Just think about the ones who are looking to try this for the first time and they come to NCKA. When I moved to the coast I didn't know anyone kayaking and found NCKA. I read about capsizing, shark attacks, and hypothermia. Never really understood how dangerous it could be. I spent months in the river practicing because of what I had learned. Glad I did.
Even if something doesn't affect you it may help someone else prepare better and teach the next generation how important safety is.
I have a different outlook on things and will not say I am not going to help someone who doesn't wear a PFD. I am not even going to refuse to fish with someone who refuses to wear one. For some reason if I see someone who needs help I will evaluate each situation and do what I can to help even if it ends up with only calling the coast guard. It must have been the Marine Corps drilling in that you don't leave anyone behind.
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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop? Congrats I guess. Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point. Yay.
I think asking the question and entertaining the idea that there are circumstances that people should not wear PFDs is irresponsible. Just like what I said about vaccines on your FB page. I view pfds and vaccines as sufficiently similar that I think that, while not exact, they are apt for comparison. On the other hand, setting a free solo climbing record for elite climbers has very little to do with the vast majority of everyday climbers who have no business climbing unprotected on a single pitch let alone dream about doing what Alex did on El Cap.
pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to. In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor. In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance. But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one. Wear your pfd. Vaccinate your kids. The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.
I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.
If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone. But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.
That's what I think.
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I still find it quite telling that people here are worrying about the rescuers and my loved ones, before even understanding the situation.
-Allen
The odds are on your side. If you only go out on good water and weather days that sure reduces the risk but it doesn't remove it. That's your decision so not really sure why you are feeling so strong about this topic.
I'm trying to figure out why I feel strongly about this as well. But it mostly keeps coming back to the close minded and disrespectful responses that are becoming all too common place.
In a situation like you mentioned you can control much of the situation but there are so many situations that one can not predict. Like I mentioned earlier and was mentioned on another post some boaters don't like kayakers and some just don't pay attention enough to not hit a kayaker.
But the kayaker has control over the part where they should always be aware of their surrounding and approaching boats. Unless a boat is specifically targeting me, I'm pretty sure I know where they are around me at all times and will get myself out of the way if needed.
Many divers spend hours in the water and don't feel like its necessary to have a life vest. Because of the rolling in fog, close calls by boaters and near misses with whales I now bring my life vest on all trips. I don't wear it all day because I am in the water much of the time but it's easily accessible in case it's needed for me or another diver.
I am still not going to complain or make comments like its telling about others caring about me, my family or rescuers that may have to help or recover my body.
You either posted the questions here to have a healthy discussion or you didn't. At this point I am not really sure why this was posted.
The telling part for me, is that from what I see here, many aren't willing to have a healthy discussion.
It truly sucks recovering dead bodies and informing family members of a lost one. We do have numerous first responders on this site and don't see how being concerned for them or a deceased persons family is a bad thing. It takes its toll on people and seeing something that was preventable just sucks.
As much time as I spend on or in the water I am convinced my odds of dying out there are going up with my age. I tell my family I try to take safety seriously but accidents, medical emergencies and unpredictable things can happen. But I also say they can happen on land so let me enjoy the ocean while I still can.
No arguments from me here. However, my first priority is to not place myself in a situation that requires responders. Presuming that responders will get involved and taking the discussion from there just seems ass backwards to me. While good to keep in mind, it shouldn't drive the discussion IMO. Honestly, it is not even something I expected to come up in the course of this discussion, so it kind of catches me off guard. I'll have to think about this some more ...
-Allen
That's just human nature when you break from the culture. Try having a healthy discussion about trolling motors or long standing regs or conventions. It usually doesn't go well. I think using the word "preaching" in your title says to me that you're not just talking about casual advice to wear a pfd.
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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop? Congrats I guess. Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point. Yay.
Who is pissed off? Please let me know. Not my intention.
Nuke the re-entry training? That is in the past. I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.
pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to. In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor. In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance. But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one. Wear your pfd. Vaccinate your kids. The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.
I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.
If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone. But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.
That's what I think.
Really? That's not the thread I started? Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly. Or both.
I support the "wear your PFD mentality". I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.
-Allen
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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop? Congrats I guess. Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point. Yay.
Who is pissed off? Please let me know. Not my intention.
Nuke the re-entry training? That is in the past. I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.
pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to. In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor. In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance. But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one. Wear your pfd. Vaccinate your kids. The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.
I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.
If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone. But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.
That's what I think.
Really? That's not the thread I started? Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly. Or both.
I support the "wear your PFD mentality". I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.
-Allen
Its hard to keep up with the several hundred replies between here and FB to remember but I distinctly recalling Craig using the words "stupid asshole". He's always in a constant low level of being pissed off though so maybe he's not a fair example. But still, that has been the tone across hundreds of posts if not a bit less blunt.
Maybe Ken is right about the use of the word "preaching". There are different ways to preach and one way might be inoffensive and effective while others might chase the parishioners off elsewhere. The word might mean different things to different people depending on life experiences and to some, like me, "preach" as a word carries no negative connotation whatsoever.
Maybe instead of talking about times that people don't really need to wear pfds to segue into a discussion about heavy handed nazi cop tactics, you could have just said hey, lets back off on the heavy handed nazi cop tactics because the message is lost on the listener and it turns out that such tactics are counterproductive.
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When I see the word preaching that way I think someone offering unsolicited and unwelcomed advice in an unpleasant manner. Usually someone is offering advice on immoral behavior.
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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop? Congrats I guess. Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point. Yay.
Who is pissed off? Please let me know. Not my intention.
Nuke the re-entry training? That is in the past. I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.
pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to. In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor. In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance. But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one. Wear your pfd. Vaccinate your kids. The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.
I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.
If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone. But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.
That's what I think.
Really? That's not the thread I started? Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly. Or both.
I support the "wear your PFD mentality". I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.
-Allen
Its hard to keep up with the several hundred replies between here and FB to remember but I distinctly recalling Craig using the words "stupid asshole". He's always in a constant low level of being pissed off though so maybe he's not a fair example. But still, that has been the tone across hundreds of posts if not a bit less blunt.
Maybe Ken is right about the use of the word "preaching". There are different ways to preach and one way might be inoffensive and effective while others might chase the parishioners off elsewhere. The word might mean different things to different people depending on life experiences and to some, like me, "preach" as a word carries no negative connotation whatsoever.
Maybe instead of talking about times that people don't really need to wear pfds to segue into a discussion about heavy handed nazi cop tactics, you could have just said hey, lets back off on the heavy handed nazi cop tactics because the message is lost on the listener and it turns out that such tactics are counterproductive.
Thanks Doug. Love you too!!! I saw some more stupid assholes at Tomales yesterday while I was in a fantastic mood. Full of good cheer and enjoying a wonderful day on the water. Lol
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:smt008
Hahahahaha
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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop? Congrats I guess. Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point. Yay.
Who is pissed off? Please let me know. Not my intention.
Nuke the re-entry training? That is in the past. I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.
pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to. In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor. In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance. But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one. Wear your pfd. Vaccinate your kids. The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.
I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.
If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone. But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.
That's what I think.
Really? That's not the thread I started? Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly. Or both.
I support the "wear your PFD mentality". I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.
-Allen
Its hard to keep up with the several hundred replies between here and FB to remember but I distinctly recalling Craig using the words "stupid asshole". He's always in a constant low level of being pissed off though so maybe he's not a fair example. But still, that has been the tone across hundreds of posts if not a bit less blunt.
Maybe Ken is right about the use of the word "preaching". There are different ways to preach and one way might be inoffensive and effective while others might chase the parishioners off elsewhere. The word might mean different things to different people depending on life experiences and to some, like me, "preach" as a word carries no negative connotation whatsoever.
Maybe instead of talking about times that people don't really need to wear pfds to segue into a discussion about heavy handed nazi cop tactics, you could have just said hey, lets back off on the heavy handed nazi cop tactics because the message is lost on the listener and it turns out that such tactics are counterproductive.
Thanks Doug. Love you too!!! I saw some more stupid assholes at Tomales yesterday while I was in a fantastic mood. Full of good cheer and enjoying a wonderful day on the water. Lol
I guess the question for the day is how did you react? Did you:
a) confront them and tell them that they need to wear pfds or else you were going to nominate them for the darwin award;
b) confront them and tell them they should never be allowed to have offspring;
c) call the actual cops and snitch them out; or
d) enjoy your Lagunitas and give zero fucks about what they were doing
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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop? Congrats I guess. Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point. Yay.
Who is pissed off? Please let me know. Not my intention.
Nuke the re-entry training? That is in the past. I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.
pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to. In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor. In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance. But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one. Wear your pfd. Vaccinate your kids. The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.
I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.
If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone. But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.
That's what I think.
Really? That's not the thread I started? Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly. Or both.
I support the "wear your PFD mentality". I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.
-Allen
Its hard to keep up with the several hundred replies between here and FB to remember but I distinctly recalling Craig using the words "stupid asshole". He's always in a constant low level of being pissed off though so maybe he's not a fair example. But still, that has been the tone across hundreds of posts if not a bit less blunt.
Craig, are you any more pissed off than normal? :smt006
Maybe Ken is right about the use of the word "preaching". There are different ways to preach and one way might be inoffensive and effective while others might chase the parishioners off elsewhere. The word might mean different things to different people depending on life experiences and to some, like me, "preach" as a word carries no negative connotation whatsoever.
I usually do not associate preaching in a positive manner. That's just me, and I can see how others might read it differently.
Maybe instead of talking about times that people don't really need to wear pfds to segue into a discussion about heavy handed nazi cop tactics, you could have just said hey, lets back off on the heavy handed nazi cop tactics because the message is lost on the listener and it turns out that such tactics are counterproductive.
Or maybe I used myself as an example, put myself on the line, and was still met with negativity. Honestly, I don't see this unfolding any differently no matter the tactic I might have taken.
-Allen
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I'm new around here and don't want to create waves, but I'll let you know what kind of ruffled my feathers about this whole thing. If I remember correctly, because I honestly didn't go back and re-read this whole thread, I said that I thought it was stupid to not wear a PFD but America is a country where people are free to die from stupidity. But I also said that I would never approach someone and tell them that. I'll just go about my day and keep my opinions about their choices to myself because that's what I would expect from complete strangers. I think that was misunderstood as me "preaching" or being a PFD nazi or something. Look man, if you start a thread about PFDs and education, your going to get people's opinions about it, unsolicited or not. The only thing this thread has done has made me feel like I should never bring up safety issues on this forum because I'll get called a nazi. Does that seem right to you? And as for the rock climber dude who climbed the thing without the ropes....what if he had died? I bet there would be a whole lot of people calling him a dumbass for thinking he was so good at his sport that he didn't need ropes or safety equipment. Just because he was successful doesn't mean he was making good choices.
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I'm new around here and don't want to create waves, but I'll let you know what kind of ruffled my feathers about this whole thing. If I remember correctly, because I honestly didn't go back and re-read this whole thread, I said that I thought it was stupid to not wear a PFD but America is a country where people are free to die from stupidity. But I also said that I would never approach someone and tell them that. I'll just go about my day and keep my opinions about their choices to myself because that's what I would expect from complete strangers. I think that was misunderstood as me "preaching" or being a PFD nazi or something. Look man, if you start a thread about PFDs and education, your going to get people's opinions about it, unsolicited or not. The only thing this thread has done has made me feel like I should never bring up safety issues on this forum because I'll get called a nazi. Does that seem right to you? And as for the rock climber dude who climbed the thing without the ropes....what if he had died? I bet there would be a whole lot of people calling him a dumbass for thinking he was so good at his sport that he didn't need ropes or safety equipment. Just because he was successful doesn't mean he was making good choices.
What was said was the following:
It's America. Everyone has the God given right to die of stupidity. I know I wear one, so that's me covered.
This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem. First, you assume someone is going to die. Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.
-Allen
I apologize that that ruffled your feathers.
The rock climber dude did not die, so it's a moot point. However, plenty of people free solo. In general, I do not think it is frowned upon, certainly not to the extent that going PFD-less is. The differences in attitude is an interesting dichotomy, one that I don't entirely understand.
-Allen
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I'm new around here and don't want to create waves, but I'll let you know what kind of ruffled my feathers about this whole thing. If I remember correctly, because I honestly didn't go back and re-read this whole thread, I said that I thought it was stupid to not wear a PFD but America is a country where people are free to die from stupidity. But I also said that I would never approach someone and tell them that. I'll just go about my day and keep my opinions about their choices to myself because that's what I would expect from complete strangers. I think that was misunderstood as me "preaching" or being a PFD nazi or something. Look man, if you start a thread about PFDs and education, your going to get people's opinions about it, unsolicited or not. The only thing this thread has done has made me feel like I should never bring up safety issues on this forum because I'll get called a nazi. Does that seem right to you? And as for the rock climber dude who climbed the thing without the ropes....what if he had died? I bet there would be a whole lot of people calling him a dumbass for thinking he was so good at his sport that he didn't need ropes or safety equipment. Just because he was successful doesn't mean he was making good choices.
What was said was the following:
It's America. Everyone has the God given right to die of stupidity. I know I wear one, so that's me covered.
This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem. First, you assume someone is going to die. Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.
-Allen
I apologize that that ruffled your feathers.
The rock climber dude did not die, so it's a moot point. However, plenty of people free solo. In general, I do not think it is frowned upon, certainly not to the extent that going PFD-less is. The differences in attitude is an interesting dichotomy, one that I don't entirely understand.
-Allen
And I apologize if you felt like I singled you out. I'm not changing my stance though, I still think it is stupid. I'm sorry if that furthers your point or whatever. I think this whole thing could be settled over beers, some things are just too complex to really discuss on a forum. I, for one know that my limited ability to express my true feelings about a complex issue over the internet play a big part in this. Bottom line is though, if I ever saw you fishing without a PFD, I would think it was a bad choice, but I wouldn't tell you that because I respect your right as an adult to take as much or little risk as you see fit.
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I'm new around here and don't want to create waves, but I'll let you know what kind of ruffled my feathers about this whole thing. If I remember correctly, because I honestly didn't go back and re-read this whole thread, I said that I thought it was stupid to not wear a PFD but America is a country where people are free to die from stupidity. But I also said that I would never approach someone and tell them that. I'll just go about my day and keep my opinions about their choices to myself because that's what I would expect from complete strangers. I think that was misunderstood as me "preaching" or being a PFD nazi or something. Look man, if you start a thread about PFDs and education, your going to get people's opinions about it, unsolicited or not. The only thing this thread has done has made me feel like I should never bring up safety issues on this forum because I'll get called a nazi. Does that seem right to you? And as for the rock climber dude who climbed the thing without the ropes....what if he had died? I bet there would be a whole lot of people calling him a dumbass for thinking he was so good at his sport that he didn't need ropes or safety equipment. Just because he was successful doesn't mean he was making good choices.
What was said was the following:
It's America. Everyone has the God given right to die of stupidity. I know I wear one, so that's me covered.
This sentiment in this statement is part of the problem. First, you assume someone is going to die. Second, you assume they are stupid if they do.
-Allen
I apologize that that ruffled your feathers.
The rock climber dude did not die, so it's a moot point. However, plenty of people free solo. In general, I do not think it is frowned upon, certainly not to the extent that going PFD-less is. The differences in attitude is an interesting dichotomy, one that I don't entirely understand.
-Allen
And I apologize if you felt like I singled you out. I'm not changing my stance though, I still think it is stupid. I'm sorry if that furthers your point or whatever. I think this whole thing could be settled over beers, some things are just too complex to really discuss on a forum. I, for one know that my limited ability to express my true feelings about a complex issue over the internet play a big part in this. Bottom line is though, if I ever saw you fishing without a PFD, I would think it was a bad choice, but I wouldn't tell you that because I respect your right as an adult to take as much or little risk as you see fit.
First beer on me.
Yes, this is a complex discussion that is difficult to express in thread form. It's probably more appropriate for an interactive discussion.
-Allen
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If I see a member of this group doing something that I personally feel is unsafe, I'm going to say something... Period... (I will try to do it respectfully).
If anyone in this group sees me doing something they feel is unsafe, I can only hope they will do the same.
When I first joined this group as a relative noob, I posted a picture of myself proudly holding my PB halibut while wearing a pair of breathable chest waders. Thankfully, some helpful folks here on the forum pointed out my mistake. I didn't think I was doing anything stupid at the time, but others with more experience knew better. I'm really glad the "dress for immersion police" spoke up. Hell, now I'm one of them!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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So Doug, what are YOUR thoughts on this subject? You seem to be trying to make a point about HOW I'm making my point, vs. discussing the actual topic ...
So you admit that you set out to generate exactly this discussion to somehow prove your point that because you don't wear a PFD 0.002% of the time you are otw that people shouldn't play pfd nazi cop? Congrats I guess. Seems you managed to piss off a couple people along the way and maybe nuked the reentry training conducted by members here but you proved a point. Yay.
Who is pissed off? Please let me know. Not my intention.
Nuke the re-entry training? That is in the past. I dont' think I have the capability to affect things retroactively.
pfds, like vaccinations, should be considered mandatory for everyone unless there is a really damn good reason not to. In the case of vaccines you will know from a doctor. In the case of PFDs you will know from thousands of hours of personal experience or by the necessity of the circumstance. But to initiate the conversation pretends that there is a debate on the subject when there is not one. Wear your pfd. Vaccinate your kids. The exceptions will be obvious and we don't need to discuss them publicly because again, it gives the appearance of a debate and there isn't one.
I think this thread was irresponsible, I think that you should not have started it, and I don't possibly see what good it has done.
If you started a different thread about how to better educate people about the best ways to approach education and increase pfd use while not scaring people off or turning people off with pfd nazi cop tactics that seem to be tolerated here, I'd have a much different tone. But that's not the thread you started and thats not the thread you intended so instead you have this third trimester abortion of a thread instead.
That's what I think.
Really? That's not the thread I started? Either I didn't phrase it correctly, or you aren't understanding it correctly. Or both.
I support the "wear your PFD mentality". I do not support the disrespectful regurgitation of said message.
-Allen
Its hard to keep up with the several hundred replies between here and FB to remember but I distinctly recalling Craig using the words "stupid asshole". He's always in a constant low level of being pissed off though so maybe he's not a fair example. But still, that has been the tone across hundreds of posts if not a bit less blunt.
Maybe Ken is right about the use of the word "preaching". There are different ways to preach and one way might be inoffensive and effective while others might chase the parishioners off elsewhere. The word might mean different things to different people depending on life experiences and to some, like me, "preach" as a word carries no negative connotation whatsoever.
Maybe instead of talking about times that people don't really need to wear pfds to segue into a discussion about heavy handed nazi cop tactics, you could have just said hey, lets back off on the heavy handed nazi cop tactics because the message is lost on the listener and it turns out that such tactics are counterproductive.
Thanks Doug. Love you too!!! I saw some more stupid assholes at Tomales yesterday while I was in a fantastic mood. Full of good cheer and enjoying a wonderful day on the water. Lol
I guess the question for the day is how did you react? Did you:
a) confront them and tell them that they need to wear pfds or else you were going to nominate them for the darwin award;
b) confront them and tell them they should never be allowed to have offspring;
c) call the actual cops and snitch them out; or
d) enjoy your Lagunitas and give zero fucks about what they were doing
I don't drink beer. I also consider it unsafe to consume a 12 pack while fishing at shelter cove. Back to the question. A woman dressed in shorts and a light shirt was headed across the bay towing an inflatable raft. Haha. I just shook my head and said loudly, there's an accident waiting to happen. Then we went to nicks and ate some raw oysters. It was a great day with good friends. Happy as a clam at high tide. P.S. Doug. I love sensational headlines of tragedy.
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I don't drink beer. I also consider it unsafe to consume a 12 pack while fishing at shelter cove. Back to the question. A woman dressed in shorts and a light shirt was headed across the bay towing an inflatable raft. Haha. I just shook my head and said loudly, there's an accident waiting to happen. Then we went to nicks and ate some raw oysters. It was a great day with good friends. Happy as a clam at high tide. P.S. Doug. I love sensational headlines of tragedy.
Statistically, you're a lot more likely to die from eating raw oysters than from not wearing a PFD while towing an inflatable raft across tomales bay. :smt003 :smt005
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I don't drink beer. I also consider it unsafe to consume a 12 pack while fishing at shelter cove. Back to the question. A woman dressed in shorts and a light shirt was headed across the bay towing an inflatable raft. Haha. I just shook my head and said loudly, there's an accident waiting to happen. Then we went to nicks and ate some raw oysters. It was a great day with good friends. Happy as a clam at high tide. P.S. Doug. I love sensational headlines of tragedy.
Statistically, you're a lot more likely to die from eating raw oysters than from not wearing a PFD while towing an inflatable raft across tomales bay. :smt003 :smt005
That's means I'm a stupid asshole then. Lol!!!!!!!!
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haven't read this whole thread yet but damn, is it January already????
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haven't read this whole thread yet but damn, is it January already????
Bookmark it.
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Anyone ever try to put one on while in the water? Especially difficult if you are in shock from the cold water, maybe overweight, out-of-shape, or old.....oh yeah, and while trying to radio for help-doh I store my radio in my pfd..... :smt005
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I'll admit I never wear one anymore. When I first started kayaking I did but at some point I stopped not sure when. Then again I mostly kayak fish the delta, sac and American so it's a bit different from the ocean. But yeah I have gotten shit from other people for not wearing it and it does get low key annoying especially when it's not presented in the best way. I'll take my risks and you take yours. Iv taken the risk of swimming to and from alcatraz, angel island etc with a wet suit and no wetsuit so I think the risk of kayaking with no pfd is small in comparison. As far as preaching it i never tell anyone anything unless I'm taking a kid on my kayak or see block head swimming in fast parts of the ar. oh and hey what's natural selection ? ;)
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