"The End of the World Is Nye!" threads

I think discussion is key to progress and opposign viewpoints need to be aired.
man's evolution is no longer about jsut his genes--it now also includes his thoughts, convictions ,ideology as it affects his actions.

Quashing dissent and debate with the goal of promoting harmony is like restricting a genepool to identical genomes: it leads to inbreeding, an inability to adapt, inviable mutation, and extinction. The founders of the nation understood this very well and had vigorous debates regarding the most controversial subject (freedom, individual versus state versus federal rights, church and state, etc.). Why have we lost that willingness in modern times? And why we do we shrink from examing our convictions and beliefs in light of ideas proposed by others? It is the fuel that burns with the requisite intensity to ensure democracy thrives and autocracy fails. Why are we so afraid to examine our beliefs and defend them rationally with logci and soudn argument? Are we afraid they might be revealed to be mere whim? I wonder.

Word.

MolBasser

So are you one of those 13% or have you always thought Thornley was a troll? 

-Allen

LOL!

<toss Dixie cup of gasoline on the bonfire >
The Pike Minnow (AKA Squawfish) might well be native to California waters, but man's deforestation allowed it to spread into areas it never populated and were previously inhospitable to it therefore crowding out Salmonids. That was not a natural evolutionary change--man artificially wrought it and bought it about rapidly. You cannot escape the fact that it was not natural evolution but a man-made catastrophe.

But if you think that's cool, then fish for Pike Minnows instead of Salmon and Steelhead and don't whine about it. Just don't hide behind the 'native species' tag to mask the fact that man screwed it up with the equivalent of foreign species invasion on a local level. You and we all know better. If that is what you believe, then stop all the whining with Coastside about our Salmon season restrictions as the genus fights for its very existence thanks to man's dull-witted greed.
</toss>

Invasive species are my thing...

Here is the word on Sacramento Pikeminnow from a friend of mine (she runs the freshwater invasive species database at the USGS, I run the marine invasive species database at the Smithsonian).

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.asp?speciesID=627

Deforestation had nothing to do with it's spread.  From the above link...

Means of Introduction: Illegally introduced into the Eel River in 1979 or 1980; the species spread rapidly within the drainage after introduction (Brown and Moyle 1991). Fish found in Pyramid Lake probably arrived through the aqueduct with central California water (Swift et al. 1993).

And here is some info on the impacts from the same site...

Impact of Introduction: Field observations indicated that the introduction of Sacramento pikeminnow into the Eel River, California, resulted in changes in habitat and microhabitat use by resident fishes (natives and introduced) but no loss of species (Brown and Moyle 1991). In its native range, this piscivorous cyprinid is known to compete with trout and also prey upon young salmonids (Burns 1966d; but see Brown and Moyle 1981).

Brian

I like these threads cause I like to have a good healthy debate. I would like to move them out of the General forum and I would like to keep them out of the fishing politics forum as well cause I think these choices do not need to be political if we can help it. Brian do you mind if we move them over to the fish talk forum? I can also create a separate forum for them if someone can think of a good name for it.

Brian,
Thanks for clearing that up. I assumed (obviously wrongly) that the Pike Minnow was able to extend its range because of the change in habitat due to sedimentationcuased by deforestation making it more hospitible for them and less so for the Salmonids--so they filled the vacuum the Salmonids left. I went Shad fshing once with a group on the Russian and caught only fish of the day--you guessed it--a Pike Minnow weighing 2 pounds. Nice fish, but fought like a shark. Pulled and pulled doggedly on the bottom. C&R.

But clear something up for me:

the introduction of Sacramento pikeminnow into the Eel River, California, resulted in changes in habitat and microhabitat use by resident fishes (natives and introduced) but no loss of species (Brown and Moyle 1991).

There's 'loss' of species and then 'decimation' of species. Loss implies there are still some there but the population could have been dramatically affected. Any idea?

Bill,

Feel free to send them my way...I don't mind thinking of "Fish Talk" as a general science forum.  So, if the debate has anything to do with questions of relating to science I don't see why they can't be hosted there.

That said, I promise not to abuse my powers as moderator if the discussions don't go my way. 


Surfing Marmot,

I guess there is some confusion here with semantics.  "Extended range" for a freshwater fish usually refers to new watersheds.  In this case, the Eel river is the extended range.  However, loss of habitat could still account for an increase in abundance of pike minnows in their native watersheds.  So your observations may still have some validity.   

The mention of "no loss of species" in quote refers to no loss of species richness or diversity (i.e. the number of species in the watershed).  It could still be possible that populations of fish decreased due to the introduction of the pikeminnow.  "Decimation" literally refers to cutting the population down to 10%, but is generally used for effect meaning a dramatic loss in numbers.


Brian

Brian,
Thanks for the clarification of 'ichthyology-speak'--I am a former engineer who always has wished he'd studied marine biology instead of EE (Jaque Cousteau was my hero growing up). I do know decimation comes from the Greek deka or 10 meaning an order of magnitude reduction. I used it, lazily I admit, because we don't have neat Greek-derived words for the in-between diminishments of a count of something discrete. I suppose that is because until a change is an order of magnitude it just isn't of note, generally. Not in this case I'd wager though.

Ok, so I've learned a couple things:

1) The vast majority of respondents views remain unchanged after eco-political threads are started. So if that is the original posters intent, it's not working.
2) There is a significant desire to move these threads into some other forum.
3) Many of you have no problem and actively encourage debate, and apparently do not feel that it increases alienation.
4) I'm definitely a troll.


I'd stopped my posting in the eco-political threads pending the results of this poll, but since there is a good number of you that encourage debate and skepticism over consensus building, I've re-entered the fray,

Thanks all,
Scott

So you wanna be a pikeminnow fisherman?  Come up north the the mighty Columbia and make some money ... http://www.pikeminnow.org/

The top money earner in 2005 made almost $40K in the 5 month season.

-Allen

Global Warming does has it 's advantages, all my property will be closer to the coast, Pelgic fish off the northern Calif coast we can wear sandals and short and no more wetsuits.AND









 

I like these threads cause I like to have a good healthy debate. I would like to move them out of the General forum and I would like to keep them out of the fishing politics forum as well cause I think these choices do not need to be political if we can help it. Brian do you mind if we move them over to the fish talk forum? I can also create a separate forum for them if someone can think of a good name for it.

Create a "lounge" forum where anything at all can be discussed.  This is what was done on the sdfish.com site.

Let's just take it to the lounge.

MolBasser

Just to tidy up a bit here.

Jmairey - you and I definitely don't see eye to eye on the GWS and kayak foam thing, but I'm pretty sure that you and I have been in complete agreement on other topics.

Polepole - I just want to clarify that the "tidbit about the Pikeminnow" or squawfish refers to this: When I first saw SurfingMarmot's statement on squawfish introductions gone amuck, my reaction was "What is he talking about?  Squawfish ARE native!". It was then that I did some research and found out about the illegal Eel River introduction. So <gasping and choking> SurfingMarmot was right about Squawfish being introduced </gasping and choking> I also read about the folks up in WA making good $$ as professional fishermen in some Salmon/Steelhead rag about 6 or so months ago. Not a bad way to make a living I suppose. Especially if you're retired. If memory serves, the top $$ earners were pulling out 80-100 or so fish a week?

A minor point, and for informational and entertainment purposes only, as I fully understand that the posts above use the more modern and common definition.  "Decimate" comes from the Latin practice of killing every tenth person in legions that mutinied. See the 2nd def and the usage notes   http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=decimation

Regards,
Scott

I also read about the folks up in WA making good $$ as professional fishermen in some Salmon/Steelhead rag about 6 or so months ago. Not a bad way to make a living I suppose. Especially if you're retired. If memory serves, the top $$ earners were pulling out 80-100 or so fish a week?

The top money earner caught 4800 fish, so that's more like 2-300 a week.  It goes down quickly from the top earners.  The 20th place person caught 1850.  The 2005 report is here ... http://www.pikeminnow.org/reports/2005-Pikeminnow-AR.pdf

-Allen

Wow! I had assumed that it was for the year, not for 4 1/4 months. That's a crapload of fish! Heck, it sounds just like work!.

Scott